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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2011 : 08:36:03 AM
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Jerry,
Let's try something different! Rather than me giving "opinions" and you selecting citations from your web site of Legal Docs - lets try to AGREE on one very specific and very limited scenario.
You go to notarize the one signature on a statement of fire insurance coverage. Your client has the insurance policy in hand. However, the statement requires the name of the agent. It's after hours and the insurance company is not answering, the information is not available until the following day. The only thing "blank" on your client's form is the name of the agent. The policy number, insurance company name and phone number of the insurance company are filled in, along with client identity and property information.
Would you:
Decline to notarize due to the "Agent Name" being blank?
Insist that N/A be entered for "Agent Name" then notarize?
Notarize and allow client to fill in name the following morning?
Some other (and better) course of action?
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Notary007
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 10:51:51 PM
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National Notary Association, Notary Bulletin: Be Wary Of Incomplete Documents
Notarizing an incomplete document exposes a signer to fraud, so no official instrument should be notarized unless it is complete and free of blank spaces.
Incomplete documents have great potential for fraudulent misuse. A borrower, for example, might sign an incomplete promissory note trusting the lender to fill it out, and then later find that the lender wrote in twice the amount actually borrowed, or an increased interest rate. In these cases, the document signer could be severely damaged, and the Notary may be required to testify in a subsequent lawsuit.
The prudent Notary will ask a signer to fill in any blank spaces, or have the signer take the document back to the issuing agency for completion, before notarization. If the spaces are inapplicable and intended to be left blank, the signer should be asked to line through each space or write “NA” in the blank space.
National Notary Association, 10 Ways to Protect Yourself From Losses Due to Claims
#2. Don’t notarize documents with blank spaces
Documents should be entirely complete prior to notarization.
American Society of Notaries, Article: “Incomplete” Documents…Missing Pages or Blanks
Notaries, how many of you have been known to say, “I don’t concern myself with the contents of the document, I just notarize signatures”?
If you have indeed spoken these words, then it’s time to refine your position. If you fail to perform a scan of the document contents, then you may not be properly assessing document completeness. This could be a serious oversight, as all notaries are required either by law or best practices to decline notarizing an incomplete document.
“Incomplete” documents are those with missing pages, or that contain blanks in the document that should be complete prior to notarization.
Michigan Notary Federation, Texas Notary Federation, May a blank document be notarized?
Never notarize a blank or incomplete document. If a signer indicates that certain spaces in a document are to be left blank because they don’t apply, suggest that he or she line through the spaces or write “Not Applicable.” This protects the signer from later unauthorized insertions, and it may prevent the notary from having to appear as a witness in a lawsuit.
Ohio Society of Notaries- Scan (don’t read) the document to ensure it is complete. If there are any blank spaces, the signer must either complete the spaces or line through them.
Delaware Notary Public FAQs,
Q. Should I notarize a document that contains blanks?
A. No. If blanks remain in a document after notarization takes place, the possibility exists that the document can be altered. A notary should do everything possible to ensure the integrity of the document being notarized. Therefore, if you are presented a document that contains blanks, please indicate these to the signer. The signer must fill in the blanks with information or if the blank does not apply, the signer should write in "N/A" or "not applicable." The notarization cannot proceed until all blanks are filled in.
Iowa SOS, DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS
When notarizing, skim the document for blanks. If the blanks are intended to be left unfilled, the signer needs to line through each space or write “not applicable.”
California Government Code 8205, A notary public may not notarize a document which is incomplete.
New York
U.S. Notary Reference Manual cites 1939 Opinion Attorney General 319 to establish that New York Notaries may not notarize a blank document.
About 25 states have similar laws, rules and official directives. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 5:59:03 PM
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Forgive the back to back posting,
But I just have to interject some "common sense" into what I perceive to be dogmatic definitions. Laws are guidelines, there are often valid exceptions to "law". We drive thru "red lights" to make way for an emergency vehicle. Saying a blank signature line is prohibited makes all "split signings" impossible. Any Signing Agent with a year or two of experience has had a "split signing". You notarize on the Mortgage "your" party and leave the other signature line blank. The package goes to the next notary who gets the missing signature and does the appropriate notarization. Can you imagine the HOWL of protest from the Title or Escrow company if the second area were to be crossed off or N/A put where the signature will eventually go?
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
Edited by - edelske on 10/05/2011 6:00:23 PM |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 5:24:11 PM
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GJL,
It appears you know the ABCs of Legal Docs!
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Notary007
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 5:20:40 PM
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Colorado Statute 12-55-107 Revocation of commission- The SOS may revoke the commission of any notary public, if the notary public:
(g) Notarizes any blank document.
Colorado Notary Handbook explains further: Blank document means any document with a blank in it that might be filled in after the time of the client's oath to, or acknowledgment of, that document. This provision does not require blanks to be filled in with specific information. A client may put "Not Applicable, or "X", or a line, scribble or other material in such spaces. A notary may then notarize the document, as long as no blanks remain in it.
Nebraska SOS Notary FAQs:
As a Notary Public we are not to read or determine the legal sufficiency of a document we are asked to notarize, but what if there are blank spaces or signatures in the document?
You are correct that a Notary should not read in detail the document they have been asked to notarize or offer advice about the content or legality of the document; however, a notary should look for blank spaces or blank signature lines on the document. Blank lines should either be completed or crossed through by the principal(s) prior to notarization. Failure to do so, leaves the document open to easy alteration after the notarial act has been performed.
Massachusetts Office of the Governor Notary FAQs:
Can I notarize a document with blank spaces?
A prudent notary should skim the document for blanks and ask the document signer to fill them in. If they are intended to be left blank, then the signer can line through them or write "N/A".
123Notary.com Glossary: Blank Spaces in Documents
A Notary should not notarize a document with blank spaces. If a notary notarizes a document with blank spaces, the signer or other party could fill in anything in those blank statements after the notarization, thus changing the content of the document, and making the signers signature that was notarized meaningless, since they didn't sign the document in its final condition. Notarizing documents with blank spaces is a huge liability and should be avoided at all costs.
One way around the problem of blank spaces is to put a line through the blanks, or find out what information should or could be put in those blanks, so you can get the document notarized. Please keep in mind that laws effecting the notarization of documents with blank spaces may differ from state to state. Notarizing documents with blanks is one of the items on the list of situations where the notary is typically instructed to, "Just say no!".
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 3:24:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
Blank documents - absolutely cannot be notarized - but documents with blanks may be complete.
An obvious example is the space for "Spouse Information" - when the person signing is single. I would not require them to "N/A". As you said the information IS complete, as there is no spouse. I doubt someone will "conjure" up a spouse!
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
Edited by - edelske on 10/05/2011 3:25:38 PM |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 3:19:26 PM
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"...if the document is incomplete or blank"...
Again - blanks in a document do not render it incomplete. Read the above like this: "...if the document is incomplete" or "if the document is blank"
Blank documents - absolutely cannot be notarized - but documents with blanks may be complete.
The portions I quoted came straight from the statutes.
Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com |
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Notary007
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 3:03:58 PM
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Florida Statute 117.107 Prohibited Acts:
"(10) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the document is incomplete or blank."
Other states also have similar laws that prohibit notarizing documents that are incomplete or have blank spaces. The reason is to help prevent fraud. An unscrupulous party could fill in the blanks later to the disadvantage of the signer, resulting in substantial harm or loss. Do you want your notary signature and seal on a document involved in a potentially fraudulent transaction?
For an Acknowledgement, the signer must willingly and knowingly agree to the purpose of the document. How can someone fully agree to a document with blanks in it? What if someone fills in the blanks after notarization?
For a Jurat, the signer must swear that the statements in the document are true. How can they swear to a document with blanks in it? What if someone fills in the blanks after notarization?
A Notary Handbook does not provide an all-inclusive safe harbor. It is only a guide. Many procedures and details are not described in a Notary Handbook or in state notary laws. The notary should not guess and invent procedures and ignore widely accepted best practices. Many states and courts expect notaries to follow professional standards and practices, such as the Notary Public Code of Professional Responsibility and the Model Notary Act. Refer to those documents for details. Ignore professional standards and notarize blank documents at your own risk.
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 05:57:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
Florida's notarial law does expressly prohibit notarizing a document that is "incomplete or blank". I don't know of any other state with that prohibition, but there could be.
Michigan removed that same prohibition from our statutes years ago, and IMO rightfully so. If the law provides that as a notary, I am not responsible for the contents/body of the document, that would (in MI) or should (IMO) include ALL contents, including blanks. Both notarial acts (ack & jurat) relate directly to the person attesting and/or signing, neither relate directly to the contents.
I could be wrong but I believe the intent of the FL law is to prohibit notaries from notarizing documents with NOTHING filled in - example: Quit Claim or Warranty Deed - brought to notary by signer with instructions - I'll just sign, you notarize and I'll finish filling it out later"...
Blanks in a document do NOT necessarily render it incomplete - and although we are not responsible for the contents of the document, we darn sure ARE responsible if we notarize a completely blank doc that will be filled in later. Our laws are also very specific in that regard:
FL Stat 117.107 Prohibited Acts:
"7. A notary public may not change anything in a written instrument after it has been signed by anyone." In my interpretation, that also means adding or deleting content/text.
JMO
Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com |
Edited by - LindaH on 10/05/2011 05:59:05 AM |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2011 : 04:03:02 AM
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Florida's notarial law does expressly prohibit notarizing a document that is "incomplete or blank". I don't know of any other state with that prohibition, but there could be.
Michigan removed that same prohibition from our statutes years ago, and IMO rightfully so. If the law provides that as a notary, I am not responsible for the contents/body of the document, that would (in MI) or should (IMO) include ALL contents, including blanks. Both notarial acts (ack & jurat) relate directly to the person attesting and/or signing, neither relate directly to the contents.
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2011 : 7:16:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jbelmont
The bottom line is that you can NOT notarize a signature on a document with blanks. Those blanks could be filled in with anything by anyone after the fact and you could get into trouble.
Expanding the topic slightly to include all notarized documents; and playing "devils advocate" I offer a case FOR allowing blanks in notarized documents! Knowing full well that I deserve the flames to follow.....
First, in the NY State Notary manual:
http://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/lawbooks/NOTARY.pdf
When I search the PDF for "blank" I do find blanks mentioned - but only requiring completion of the notary section in the various forms presented as models for notaries to follow. Of course the above manual is not the "total picture" or the last word on proper procedure. But it seems odd that they never mention the subject of blanks in the body of the document.
The largest document I personally notarized was over 800 pages and bound like a book. The document was for the sale of a Supertanker. It had dozens of changes that were initialed. I had to wait several (well paid for) hours until the parties were in agreement and ready to sign the document. Did it contain blanks? I don't know; I was not about to "flip the pages" of an 800+ page book that weighed a bit more than me!
So I ask "just how firm and rigorous" are members of the "anti-blank" majority? Would you have flipped page by page to laboriously inspect for a blank - EACH of the 800 pages? If not, why be critical about a smaller document. What applies to the biggie should apply equally to the tiny, right?
We have no duty, IMHO, to either read or inspect the body of the document; at least not in any law that I am aware of. Certainly it is not part of the NY Notary law as published by the NY Dept of State. So I ask just where this "rule" comes from? I feel it is the responsibility of the person signing the document to determine if it is "suitable" for signing, even if it is to be notarized.
If someone brings a blank to my attention I would tell them they have 3 choices. Ignore it. Fill it in. Line thru it. Of course they also have the choice to sign or not sign the document. Additionally, and the best choice is to "kick the problem upstairs" and have them speak to their Loan Officer (or similar), who can advise them.
(I'll be back in a moment - just putting on my fireproof long johns - meager protection against the flames sure to come my way).
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
Edited by - edelske on 10/04/2011 7:30:50 PM |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 03:08:42 AM
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Whether or not borrowers file tax returns jointly, lenders usually obtain a separate 4506/t for each borrower. It's a software thing - each borrower's info is input only once, and the data 'globally populates' the necessary documents for each party.
While it would be one less piece of paper if they did combine two borrowers filing joint returns onto one 4506/t - it isn't incorrect for them to use separate ones. The form only requires the signature of one tax-filer for jointly-filed returns (this is stated just above the signature line) - each borrower signing their own form satisfies the requirement.
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Mike
Tennessee
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2011 : 3:28:15 PM
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Thanks Renee,
In all honesty it was filled out wrong because they had given me and my wife seperate 4506's and one should have just been used since we filed jointly. We should have signed the same form but we didn't. Now would the IRS still issue the transcript, not supposed to but doesn't mean they won't, could slip by. I'm taking it from Notary.net. They did a good job on the notary class I took but a little dissappointed with the signing agent class. I'm familiar with the 4506, 4506-t. Ones for a copy that takes weeks and comes with a hefty fee and the other is for a transcript and its free. Both provide the same information. Thanks again |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2011 : 1:18:38 PM
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Not sure who's teaching the class your taking, but the 4506 or 4506T (two different forms) are done at close because they expire (for lender, a "third party") in 120 days. Typically, one is done at application and another at close - investors won't buy a loan w/out a viable form in the file.
Thanks for completing your profile! It definitely helps us to help you.
Just so we're clear, I would not let a borrower decide how to complete a form. That's why I said in so many words - to each his own. I would be comfortable in my own 'job description' as a contract closer to tell him what the form is used for, and would not consider it "UPL" to enter in the dates as I'd described earlier if a borrower didn't want to leave them blank. I'm not giving him any legal advice, I'm not playing attorney, I'm not interpreting law, etc. Loud and clear - that's MY decision, might not be everyone's.
Since this is a critical document, if the borrower were to fill it in wrong - it could impact his loan's funding. That's why I wouldn't just let him figure it out on his own. |
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Mike
Tennessee
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2011 : 07:26:48 AM
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Thanks for the response. I'm sorry I wasn't too clear. I realize its not notarized and I was referring to me as the borrower lining thru the documents since it was my closing. The reason I said current year was because I read in the online signing agent class I am taking that the lenders will sometimes request a transcript for the first year of the loan. So lets see if I got this, as the signing agent, if a borrower does not want to leave blanks and doesn't want to sign a particuler form, call the person who hired me, no answer, let the borrower decide.Sounds good.
Thanks for the tip on the profile. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2011 : 02:50:53 AM
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Some states prohibit notarizing a document containing blanks, but some do not - you'll have to check your own state statutes on that, Mike. (I might suggest filling out your forum profile, then we'll be able to give better advice, since we'll then know what state you're in.)
The 4506t isn't a notarized document, though. What I would do might not be what others would do - everyone has their own comfort level & protocol.
This document allows the lender to submit to the IRS for transcripts of the information on the tax returns coinciding with the years entered in section 9. Lenders almost always go back two years - current year wouldn't have a return on file, so it wouldn't be entered. Whatever you decided to do, do NOT strike through, as it would render the form useless and would most likely win you another quick trip to have another one signed (and an angry client). =)
FWIW, most people are like you, Mike - they don't notice or don't mind blanks. I don't recall having anyone balk at these particular blanks, and I've done a lot of closings.
When you do make a call from the table, it should be first to whomever hired you. Don't by-pass your client UNLESS you know they don't mind your calling someone else directly. Often you'll get contact info for all parties, and that would indicate they don't mind.
You'll also have to decide whether you are/will be acting as strictly a notary public, or as a "signing agent", or as a contract closer - there's generally a lot of variance of opinion, protocol and interpretation of things between the various 'job descriptions'. |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 10:55:09 PM
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Hi Mike,
Here is my three step solution:
1. Call the lender
2. If the lender doesn't answer (and they generally don't), ask the borrower what they think should go in the blanks.
3. If neigher the lender or borrower has a clue, then put a line through the blank(s).
The bottom line is that you can NOT notarize a signature on a document with blanks. Those blanks could be filled in with anything by anyone after the fact and you could get into trouble.
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Mike
Tennessee
13 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 5:04:52 PM
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| Another silly question for the pros. What should you do if your at a loan signing at the borrower is examining a form and notices blank spaces and refuses to sign. For example, I am looking at my recent loan closing, and I will be honest, I didn't do much reading,just glanced at titles then signed away. In my defense it seemed as if I had signed most of the forms already and I believed most of information they were requesting should have already been taken care of by this time. On my form 4506 line 9 is left blank. If I had insisted could I have lined thru three of the blanks and inserted the current or prior tax year. Or should you contact the lender for instructions? Thanks in advance for your reply. |
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Blank spaces on Loan Documents
