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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
 Posted - 12/19/2010 : 05:21:32 AM
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First of all, I appreciate the opportunity to have a dialog about this. The exchange of different viewpoints is, I think, the best vehicle to get us all where we would like to be.
Whatever the numbers or percentages, I think we must acknowledge that in ANY group of people or profession there will be those who fail to meet acceptable (let alone exemplary) measures. Let's make that Fact #1.
Fact #2: History repeats. For the most probable prediction of what a person WILL do, you can look at what they HAVE done. This also applies to Jeremy & 123 with regard to the review methods already in place.
Given the number of people listed (6,000) - if you look OBJECTIVELY (key word) at the 'Drama Factor' that has come about by consequence since the reviews were implemented, it appears to me that the fears & concerns expressed have not been realized. In other words - the concern that grossly negative, totally unwarranted & non-rebuttable reviews would become a huge, frothy demon shredding bowl-fulls of good people for breakfast simply has not happened.
Fact #3: Pony-up. We just haven't been faced with the counter-measure to how WE hold our own client's toes to the fire. We will easily & readily post on the internet for the whole world to see, by name, often completely lacking in basic substantiated fact. It's a safe assumption that some number of those accusations have been one-sided, misguided at the wrong company or person, even completely erroneous, yet likely carried a huge impact. Still, we as a whole rely upon our colleagues to build vendor's ratings for our own protection.
We might all conversationally agree that we, ourselves, our INDUSTRY needs to be polished, but we've thus far met every attempt to do that with collective battle cries. We often ask "Is there some secret NSA review site that we don't know about? Is there a 'black list'?" By coming up with a method for reviews that WE can engage in/with, we can enable our clients to better use 123 (i.e. us) by not forcing them to devise their OWN methods of 'quality control'. What we also know is that our clients DO use some type of weeding-out method - of course they do - but it's without our engagement or ability to impact our own reviews, or offer a counter elsewhere at the least. Some of the larger clients share or sell their NSA database - and the value RESTS in the reviews contained in it.
I recall the most recent attempt someone made with a website specifically for this purpose - 'we' had it shut down in about a heartbeat. There are pretty similar 'review' methods used to rate vendors, complain of ill behavior, lack of prompt/any pymt on other sites - those remain in use. I guess my question is: If we look at this objectively, what does it say about us?
Fact #4: There are always always always 3 sides to every story.
Summary: I'm really trying to sort out my emotional feelings from my objective thoughts. Laying things out as the facts that I see brings me to the conclusion that a review method that allows for input is ultimately a good thing. I, for one, see the opportunity to BE reviewed as a benefit to both my own self, and my profession. We don't/won't do this for ourselves, we won't allow others to put us through 'processes' that we put them through, there are things unbalanced in that.
The one thing I'm hesitant to speak about - The Drama De 'Jour. If we look at our FEELINGS, it takes us one place but if we strip it all away and remain objective, it takes us another place. I apologize, Jeremy, for saying you were "unprofessional" in representing your own self. I retract that opinion; the situation was not placed in public first by you, and I do absolutely support every person's right to represent themselves - particularly & perhaps even especially in response to anything placed in the public domain.
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 5:58:29 PM
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Hi Shannon,
I'm not going to sit here and let an innocent notary get slandered by a maniac. Try to have more faith in me. Even when a notary is at fault, most of the time I don't even publish it. Our recent particular case got blown out of control, but that person had many priors and was a regular troublemaker.
If I let even 5% of my notaries have a complaint on their profile, how long would my business last? That is why I'm very careful. Do I have to be careful to the point that I allow a notary to murder every borrower who's house they step into, and not even ask questions? Most notaries think I should be permissive to that point. BALANCE and fairness is the goal. I'm biased in favor of the notaries, so its the browsers who should be complaining, not you guys.
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 4:02:23 PM
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I have to agree with most of what Renee has said also.
My own opinion varies slightly in the addition of another point. We are paying advertisers/clients who benefit from 123 because we have made an investment here. I get really hacked off at the idea anyone at 123 would be passing judgement regarding our behavior that is not under their direct control. In other words, your power is derived from your ability to cut-off our work. Further, that you might decide to alter our ability to earn based upon any hearsay from any third party really makes me crazy.
I would like to see you do away with any review process. Not because I am worried about "actual" complaints but rather because I fear "virtual" complaints and the absence of due process. In other words: Anyone could say anything...It doesn't make it true and you are not equipped to determine the truth anyway. You don't set pricing, do our invoicing, set appointments or in any real way know what transpires when users of 123 contact us directly. (Nor do we want you to). I, for one, get very territorial when someone (anyone) tries to tell me how I must run my business. Advertising on 123 does not (in my opinion) give you license to do that.
That's just where I am coming from.
For the record, I am a passionate believer in 123 and have said so many times. I do have opinions on these matters (as do others)and I believe that's the way it should be
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
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https://twitter.com/aquicknote
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 1:59:28 PM
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Hi Renee,
I am not admitting a 5% rate of error. Since notaries rarely provide any evidence to prove their story, I have to go with which story makes sense. An illogical defense verses a very thorough and factual defense.
I agree with Renee that preventive maintenance is good. I should try to educate notaries not to do no-shows and not to do last minute cancellations. I think I'm already doing this with certain blog posts. I could do more of this too.
The truth is, that notaries on 123notary are indeed excellent overall. We have very few troublemakers. The problem is that a few of the troublemakers are so loud, that they cause a big problem. A small handful of troublemakers can also cause a problem with browsers, and nobody knows how that effects 123notary and the notaries on board. If John Doe ruins someone's loan, Renee Doe might lose many jobs because Frank the browser no longer uses us. Then Renee Doe is in trouble.
Its not so easy to solve these problems. Most notaries are good. The ones who cause trouble on a regular basis have personality issues that cause them to be perpetual trouble makers.
You can educate someone, but you can not change someone's nature.
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marwells
Virginia
26 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 07:11:19 AM
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I think everything Renee has said is a five-star post. I have always viewed 123Notary as an advertising site. I can't see & don't agree with the "Review" section. IMO it oversteps the bounds that we signed up for & interferes with us conducting our business. There is always a fine line between a "moderator" & a "dictator".
I respect that Jeremy owns the site. I own my business & pay to list here. I've always viewed it as a simple business arrangement.
I think that if I were in the position that Jeremy or Carmen find themselves in regarding complaints against notaries, my position would be to tell the callers that it isn't within the scope of 123's business to get involved in such matters. Again, IMO, this sort of thing only serves to harm everyone involved. To take a position of mediator in disputes is a dangerous thing to do, again in IMHO. I know I have been concerned by recent events on the site, including the midnight calls to check if I'm truly 24-7. I saw that as intrusive. What's next? Will I need to provide evidence of the no. of signings I've completed, etc. What I choose to say in my profile, which serves as my advertisement, is my busness. IMO I'm the only one responsible for the content. No other advertiser that I know of ever gets involved in the content of the add. How would newspapers, magazines, CraigsList, etc. ever monitor that? I would gag at the amt. of false advertising & claims that are made everywhere in the advertising world. It's my job as a consumer to be able to discern what's legit or not.
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 05:42:35 AM
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You have said that the intent is to protect 123 notaries from false or unreasonable accusations, to protect the public and improve the community, and as a business decision.
Of the 6,000 notaries listed, you say you've removed 2 due to numerous complaints (over how many years?). That's .0003% - a very miniscule number that wouldn't seem to be sufficient to warrant a bona-fide need to protect the public.
You then said only one-half of a percent have received complaints (again, over what time period?). Again, pretty small number.
If .0003% or .5% is an issue to address, it would seem to be best addressed privately, PARTICULARLY considering that you have acknowledged you can only ever hope to be 95% correct in whatever determination you make. Your admitted rate of error is 5%, considerably higher than the rate of issues. The math here just doesn't work. That's a 5% chance of ruining someone's reputation. A 5% chance of a lawsuit. A 5% chance of harming someone's livelihood.
The best way to solve a 'problem' is to prevent it from occurring to begin with - as opposed to damage control AFTER the fact. If a problem occurs over and over, it becomes even LESS logical to continue trying to solve it after it happens.
Our reputation = your reputation, but your reputation also = ours. We ALL share one item on the agenda - making a living. 123 has over the past 5 1/2 years been very successful for ME (and for many others). If we need to be more successful for you - which is not only understandable, but probable given the economics of the times - it would seem mutually beneficial if we worked in harmony towards that goal. Much of the effort made by 123 since perhaps the time the FB was initiated has taken away from 123's reputation and any sense of harmony, from what I myself feel and what is shared conversationally with every single colleague I speak with privately. Personally, I have always given a great value to whatever a "crowded room" is saying - whether or not I agree, like it, feel good about it, etc. If you care to go one level deeper, it has to do with Johari's Window - our inability to experience ourselves the way others experience us. Hence, the value of the crowded room.
Back to solving problems at the gate - I'm certain that if our community (as a whole) brainstormed the issue, we could come up with a mutually beneficial means of achieving what we ALL want to achieve. Engagement = ownership, and ownership is the best motivator.
If you're selling 123 as having 'the best' notaries; if your certification is deemed to weed out those less qualified - those would be areas to hone and polish to a brilliant shine. I have LONG believed that the first person to come up with an iron-clad certification & method for delivery will have themselves a goldmine, because NOBODY has achieved that. It is POSSIBLE to do that, but it requires long-range vision. If the test is too simple, you'll sell more of them but they won't mean anything. If they're extremely difficult - you'll sell LESS, and the word on the street will be your advertising - when a lot of people are out there saying "Dang, did you take THEIR test?! I tried, but couldn't pass!", the reputation will build itself.
Thinking long-term, IF you were to involve the community (engagement/ownership/buy-in/HARMONY), and a cheat-proof & iron-clad TRUE TEST of a person's knowledge AND experience were designed ...it could set the bar, raise everyone's motivation to achieve that bar, and put a sparkle on 123's listings. Once that were 'a given', a solid reputation - what do you think might happen to that .0003% of complaints?
These are my thoughts, opinions, feelings - of which I have no short supply. I sincerely hope you will consider what all of us are saying.
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 7:31:24 PM
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Carmen and I have talked about this topic in depth. 123notary currently has a review system. If a complaint comes in against a notary, we hear both sides of the story and then decide whether or not to publish the review. The benefit of the doubt always goes to the notary and negative reviws are usually kept private unless the notary really is clearly at fault for something serious. We value protecting the notary, although we also need to protect the public from notaries who take liberties.
Should 123notary get involved?
Many notaries think that 123notary should NOT get involved in moderating issues between notaries and clients: (signing companies, lenders, etc.). I feel I have to protect the public without endangering the reputations of innocent notaries, so we will have a review system. But, should I be the judge and jury, or should notaries have the right to CHOOSE if they want to defend themselves rather than having me as their impartial judge and jury? Defending themselves means publishing a rebuttal to any accusation. The rebuttal can include claims, evidence, and can be as thorough as the notary likes. The public would be able to decide for themselves who is telling the truth and who they should hire.
How should we resolve issues?
Once again, we will have a review system to protect (warn) the public from notaries who don't send back docs, do last minute cancellations, or engage in other serious misconduct. But, what do you think the best way to moderate issues is?
Whether you like our system or not, the notary is always protected from unfairness, and the benefit of the doubt once again, goes to the notary.
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