| |
 Dear Signing Agents,
You need to REGISTER and have a password to post or reply to discussion topics. Please remember, your password for your listing on 123notary.com is NOT RELATED to and is different from your password on the forum. Your password on the forum can be whatever you want it to be.
|
|
  Be the first person to vote!
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2010 : 08:13:38 AM
|
To thyne own self be true
If the borrower states to you that the AKA document has a false statement - then you should not notarize their signature on the document without a correction. It does not matter what "somebody else" wants or needs. If we notarize statements that BOTH the borrower and the notary know are false - then notarization itself should be abolished as being a worthless waste of time.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 6:50:30 PM
|
Linda, Fair question, I can see where you got that.
Multiple trains of though in a short space.I was talking about discovering fake ID's. Some while a Bank employee (and a notary for a portion of those), and some since. Some due to signature irregularities, some else-wise.
Yes, ~15 confiscated while working for the bank. It was policy, and they're turned over to local authorities. I've had 1 left behind as an independent, 1 I took. Didn't know who to give that one too, as it was supposedly a "Government employee" ID badge.... but they botched the spelling of both the name of the Agency, and their own "supposed" name.
But again, Not one person has argued about the fact they had a fake ID. Some people just get up and leave, others give looks that they tried, failed, oh well.
Shannon, I never stated they had to be "identical". I've repeatdly stated I stated I compare them. I'm not looking at the "signature" but signs within the writing that just don't change. Slant, angle, loops, crosses etc. If someone was local, I'd be happy to show you things to look at. Then maybe this wouldn't be so strange.
My concern is those that posted they don't even look at the signatures on the ID's. Isn't that scarier? It's plainly obvious I'm in the minority.
Craig/CA |
|
|
|
Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 10:47:20 AM
|
The question here seems to be whether or not reviewing a persons "signature match" is required (or at least good) notary practice.
I don't know of anything in California law that instructs California notaries to seize/confiscate anyone's Identification. If this is indeed the responsibility of a Notary Public, this is truly news to me and I want to learn more about it. As I understand them, our "powers" are simply to stamp or not to stamp on a particular document by adhering to that 'good' notary practice.
There is no reason to be defensive here for any reason as we are all sharing and trying to understand both other incidents and viewpoints in order to make good decisions in the future.
I've already outlined the many reasons a persons signature could and would be different than that shown on their ID. Perhaps you could isolate the basis in law (statute) that requires signatures to be identical before a notarization can take place? I don't doubt your commitment to do the right thing, but am struggling to reach the same conclusions you seem to have made.
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
Follow me on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/aquicknote |
|
|
|
LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 09:03:03 AM
|
Well I seem to be out posted 3 to 1 that other notaries don't even look at the signatures on ID's. I've been to court (due to no fault of my own). I came out unscathed. I wonder if they have too.
I'm curious how many fake ID's these non-signature verifiers have come across in their Notary years. In my first ten years, while employed at a bank, I personally kept about 15 fake ID's. At least half of those were discovered due to signature errors. In the last 6 years as an independent full time notary, I've had about 5. Here's the (not so) funny thing. Not a SINGLE person I kept the ID from, said a word. Yes not one word! No, "but it's". No, "it's not!" NOTHING. They all knew it was fake, and just walked away.
Additionally, I love how they stand on "it's what they (fill in blank) wants". Your apparently the same notaries that I always hear Escrow / Title / Signing services, state "but everyone else does it", just because it's "what they want" or "how we do it". You'd be amazed how often when I explain what they want is improper, they respond, "I had no idea", or "I didn't know that was improper". There are the shady ones too.
As I ended my last post, it's your financial future not mine. I know the saying goes, "I'd rather be lucky than smart", I pray your luck holds out.
Oh, So far as UPL, CA law at least lets me make the final decision as to weather or not I "feel" (yes you read that right) all is kosher. Just need to document why I didn't notarize something in my journal.
Craig/CA
P.S Not only do I look at the entire ID's. I also carry a black light, and a money pen to make sure I don't get funny money, and they too have also caught funny business I would have otherwise missed. |
Edited by - cnaylor on 04/09/2010 09:15:32 AM |
|
|
|
Sylvia_FL
Florida
46 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 6:42:38 PM
|
Well, my signature doesn't match my signature on any of my ID cards. My signature has changed over the years - and now it is more readable!
I also sign my name with my middle initial whether it is on any documents or not. That is my "legal" signature, the way I have always signed my name.
|
|
|
|
Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 2:55:13 PM
|
Upon review of this entire thread, I cannot come to the same conclusion from my reading of the statute. Regardless of the ID signature (on a persons Driver's License for example) a signer may sign his/her name any number of ways. In fact, the signer is required to sign the document as it is drawn (which may or may not be the way they "normally" sign or signed on their Driver's License). The important thing is that their Identification supports the signature required on the document. For example, a document is drawn John Q. Public but the signers ID reads John Quimby Public and he signed the driver's license John Quimby Public. In this case, the signer could (and should) sign John Q. Public.
Based upon my experience, I believe it is bordering upon the practice of law to otherwise interpret what a persons signature should or should not look like. Further examples would be when a persons signature has changed over time, a person has a physical inability to sign in a manner that they once did due to physical changes/issues-shakey hand etc.
Another is what many refer to as the "doctors" signature which is probably not legible (I have one of these myself). A signer's signature does not have to be legible in order for it to be lawful. Part of the reason a Notary is required is to verify an actual person made the signature and that their ID indicates they are who the ID indicates they are.
ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT: Lenders/underwriters sometimes choose to reject signatures (usually due to inconsistency v.s. the appearance of the signature itself). But, that rejection is not a function of the notary process.
I am not an attorney and I do not offer legal advice.
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
Follow me on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/aquicknote |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 10:58:34 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by PWinFL
[quote]Please cite the code or statute that states that the notary must compare the signature of the person signing the document and the ID they present for identification purposes.
Civil Code § 1185.
(a) The acknowledgment of an instrument shall not be taken unless the officer taking it has satisfactory evidence that the person making the acknowledgment is the individual who is described in and who executed the instrument.
(b) For the purposes of this section “satisfactory evidence” means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be and any one of the following...
Section A ties the signature on the document and the ID together. They are not mutually exclusive.
Section B states that the ID is only satisfactory evidence in the absence (key word) of evidence to the contrary.
Now we move into what a reasonable person expects, also part of Section B. When you write a check, use a credit card, sign a notarized document and are required to show ID... the reason for this is for the person looking at the signed item to identify the signer. The mere fact that a signature is mandated on acceptable ID, implies it's needed for a reason. To me a reasonable person would look at the mandated signature the required ID has on it. Signatures not resembling each other would not be an absence of information, evidence, circumstances that the individual claims to be.
Looking at this in a broader arena, in order for a merchant to avoid a charge back for a Credit Card usage where fraudulent usage is claimed, they need to document the observed and compared signatures on the card to an ID. It's sad that you would beleive a notary should be held to a lesser level of what a "reasonable person" would do for documents that could mean so much more than a credit card charge.
A notary who states they "do not look at the signature" would be 1) not reasonable, and 2) willfully not adhering to their charge to look for a lack of absence of info contrary to the claim being made by the signer.
Back to my Mickey & Minnie mouse example below. If you never looked at the signatures, you would have missed that evidence/information that calls into question that the person may not be who they claim to be. However you were charged with verifying that there was no absence of evidence / information to the contrary.
Since a Notary is personally responsible for there actions (or inaction's), if you beleive a civil trial jury of you peers would find a Notary not looking at signatures reasonable.... It's your livelihood, home, car, and other possessions on the line, not mine.
In CA not only could I put my life savings on the line, I can serve time for willfully ignoring Notarial law. That is to big of a carrot to willfully not look at signatures and assume that a reasonable person wouldn't either.
Craig/CA |
Edited by - cnaylor on 04/02/2010 11:20:28 PM |
|
|
|
PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 05:17:53 AM
|
quote:
CA Law requires me to compare the person signing the documents signature, to the signature on the ID as part of identifying the constituent. They are not mutually exclusive.
I disagree with your statement that comparing signatures is required under CA laws. Please cite the code or statute that states that the notary must compare the signature of the person signing the document and the ID they present for identification purposes. Granted, signatures are required to be affixed to the form of identification, e.g. driver's license, passport, etc., but I find no reference to comparing that signature to the signature being notarized and affixed to the document.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 7:40:54 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by PWinFL
Typically the signer is signing in front of you, so you know that the signature is that of the person whom you positively identified using appropriate documents and procedures. All states require you identify the signer, but no state, that I'm aware of, requires a notary to compare the signature of the signer with any ID documents that have a signature affixed.
I'll be more specific. Typically the person in front of me signs the document in front of me. They also must provide an acceptable form of identification. These are mutually exclusive of one another UNTIL you compare one to the other.
Based entirely on what you wrote, and based upon your statement that you DO NOT COMPARE signatures, Minnie Mouse can sit in front of you with an ID that says Minnie Mouse, but with a signature of Mickey Mouse. She signs the document Minnie Mouse. According to you, all is Kosher, as no state requires you to "compare the signature of the signer with an ID documents that have the signature affixed".
No wonder Florida is such a huge scam artist state. One dosen't even need to forge signatures, anything flies. While CA has it's issues to, at least the forgers have to work at it.
Craig/CA |
Edited by - cnaylor on 04/01/2010 7:47:15 PM |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 7:30:53 PM
|
Not necessary.
Apples and Oranges.
Your combining identification and what defines a signature.
Where we apparently disagree: Identifying includes comparing signatures.
We all have common things we do in our writing that don't change. Broken hand or not, our slant doesn't change, whether we loop a letter or where we cross it doesn't change. Your looking at your signature, I'm not. I'm looking at characters. This is why it's important to look at the signatures upside down.
CA Law requires me to compare the person signing the documents signature, to the signature on the ID as part of identifying the constituent. They are not mutually exclusive.
Where we appear to agree:
There signature is their signature. Read my post below. I don't care (ok maybe that's overstated... but you understand what I mean) what the Lender, Escrow, or Signing Service want to see in the way of a signature. As stated below my signature is first & last only. I use my middle name on all legal documents... but not in my signature. I understand others do the same.... but when a signature is clearly readable I will let then know the lender may not accept it. That's it, just a warning. If they chose to alter, that's there business. If they choose to leave it alone that to is there business.
In total, I don't really care what they put on the document, just that it match the signature on the ID per CA law. If that means signing my Journal twice, once as in the document, and again as on the ID, so be it.
When I certify under penalty of perjury that the person signing the document is the same person I have identified via satisfactory evidence, you bet your keister their signature is going to resemble one another before my stamp is going on the document.
Craig/CA |
|
|
|
PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 5:56:48 PM
|
If I watch someone, who I positively identified, sign a document, then that's their signature. No ifs ands or buts about it. Case in point. My driver's license is an acceptable form of ID. The signature on that license does not look like my signature on the paper. There are a couple of reasons this may be. In my case, I had a broken hand when I signed my driver's license. It has since healed and my signature looks like it has for many, many years. Given that, I guess you, Craig, would not accept my ID as being valid since my signature didn't match. And, here's another scenario that happens way to often. My "legal" signature does not have my middle name, nor initial in it. However, most loan documents, title documents, and other documents do show either my middle name or middle initial. So, when I'm told that I "must sign my name exactly as it appears on the page" then my signature on those documents would not be my signature at all, but only a cursive representation of my name as printed. It would not match the signature on any of my ID's. So then what?
Thankfully in Florida, the issue of "legal signature" has been addressed by our Secretary of State, Attorney General and the courts. A person's signature is whatever they want it to be, so state that it is their signature, and have consistently used that signature previously. Again, if I watch Tom Jones sign a document, whatever it may look like, it is his signature. I am not going to question it. I can attest to the fact that the person named in the document, in fact did affix their signature to that document.
However, if someone presented a signed document to me that requires I take their acknowledgment, then I certainly may want to compare signatures on the ID and possibly on another document which they would sign in my presence. I wouldn't reject the signature out of hand because it didn't look exactly like the one on their ID, especially if the document was a bit aged. If I thought the signature was questionable, I may ask them to resign the document beneath the signature that is already there.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
|
|
|
LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 12:34:28 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by PWinFL
We're not the signature police nor are we handwriting experts.
You apparently missed out on the context of a few posts, vs content of the thread subject line, and just posted. There was a sub thread subject about reproducibility of scribbled vs. readable signatures, and the ability to forge them.
That said, part of your identification process should be looking at the signatures. If one hasn't a clue what to look at, I tossed a few items out (free training).
Some states define what an ID must have to be usable. CA for one requires a signature, along with identifying number, photo, physical description (though Passports don't have this info), and a few other items.
My JOB as a Notary is to attempt to detect, and deter fraud. Maybe in FL it's different. I know many who post on the notary Forums are anti NNA, at least they get this right.
What do you do with the ID, just record info? I look at the picture and the description, do they match each other? Blue eyes listed, brown inn the photo, green on the person in front of me? Same goes for height, weight, hair color. Yes contacts, hair dye, diet can alter these things.... but does it jive or not? Signature is another. This dosen't take much time. I keep their ID's from the time I request it before I start anything, till I'm completely done. I can take my time looking at these things. I don't have to be obvious.
To bad so many Notaries take the "it's not my job, I wasn't trained, I'm not an expert, attitude". Paw, by the majority of your posts here and elsewhere, I'm shocked that you do over this issue. I've been to court, I would hate to see you on the stand.. but judge, I don't compare the signatures, it's not my job when I identify the person in front of me.
Positive identification is part of my charge by the state of CA, again maybe FL is different. If this is the case, to bad FED law requires all states to accept notarization's of other states.
I take my job seriously. If I'm (your) not trained to make these determinations, GET THE TRAINING!
Craig/CA |
Edited by - cnaylor on 04/01/2010 12:35:54 PM |
|
|
|
PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:13:42 AM
|
We're not the signature police nor are we handwriting experts. Typically the signer is signing in front of you, so you know that the signature is that of the person whom you positively identified using appropriate documents and procedures. All states require you identify the signer, but no state, that I'm aware of, requires a notary to compare the signature of the signer with any ID documents that have a signature affixed.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 08:47:05 AM
|
Don't get me wrong. My signatures very unique. Years ago when an FBI agent taught a class for a group of Bank managers, he used a sample of each of our signatures to teach the class. Of the 20 or so of us, mine he determined was the most difficult to copy, even though one could "read" it, and others signatures you couldn't. Additionally because mine was so consistent, and the "scribbles" for the most part were different every time, mine would be the most likely to prove in court that a "fake" was in fact a "fake".
Most IMPORTANT always compare signatures upside down. Right side up you look to much at the letters, upside down you look at a design.
Signature experts (and what he taught us) use slant, loops, where letters close / cross etc, and other things to compare the "design", letters become much less important. Squiggles upside down, just become a line, and there is nothing distinguishing, or comparable about them most of the time.
Craig/CA |
|
|
|
Lisa T.
California
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 10:43:00 PM
|
I agree with Don. My mom (bless her heart) has a signature so clear and easy to forge - I even thought this when I was a kid, not old enough to sign my own name. I used to think her signature was too neat and easy. Both of my sisters sign their name like our mom, not only legible but so neat it can be easily copied with barely any practice.
Now my signature [on the other hand] is illegible and cannot be forged [it would take lots and lots and lots of practice]. |
|
|
|
Don
California
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 5:24:45 PM
|
| In this business it makes sense to have an "abstract" signature....aka illegible scribble. Faster, easier on the wrist and can not be declared undersigned or oversigned. |
|
|
|
cnaylor
California
32 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 10:56:28 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by cmihalik
A couple of things. First, what do you say or do if the borrowers refuse to sign their names as they appear? The companies make it VERY clear that they want the signatures exactly as the name appears. Can we really ask them to sign a doc that is not their true signature? And how about the name variants? I've had people sign the variants the same as their normal signature (many times unrecognizable and looking nothing like it's written anyway.)
Thanks ya'll
wrong aka's aside...
Heres my take, if their signature is entirely readable, IE you can see every single letter, I clearly explain, that the escrow / lender may bounce it. If it's scribbles, my opinion is let the escrow company argue it's not.
While my signature is not letter perfect, you can clearly make out my first and last names. Unlike many peoples, you can take a signature of mine (aching wrist and all) after 20 notarized documents, and compare it to the first, or even one 10 years ago, and they will match. I use my middle name on all legal documents. I can't "sign" my middle name, it's an albatross in the middle of the remainder of my signature. Therefore I don't sign my middle name, period! If some document appeared with a signed middle name, it's a blatant forgery. Same goes for my initial, it's not a printed combo of letters, it actually looks were much like an "@" symbol. Again, any other would be a forgery and not my initials.
While I'm there to assist meet the escrow/lenders requests, and will broach the issue, I'm not the signature/initial police either, and refuse to be.
To date, I've been doing this since 1995, I've had one escrow company employee who wished to tie her panties in a knot over the issue.
Craig/CA |
Edited by - cnaylor on 03/25/2010 11:05:10 AM |
|
|
|
LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 2:40:45 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by cmihalik
A couple of things. First, what do you say or do if the borrowers refuse to sign their names as they appear? The companies make it VERY clear that they want the signatures exactly as the name appears. Can we really ask them to sign a doc that is not their true signature? And how about the name variants? I've had people sign the variants the same as their normal signature (many times unrecognizable and looking nothing like it's written anyway.)
Next, what do you do if doc's are drawn up in a woman's maiden name, but her ID is in her married name? There is a DL she can present with her maiden name, but they've hole punched it so that it is invalid. She offered her marriage license. Does that suffice?
Thanks ya'll
Check your state's notary handbook - identification requirements vary state to state.....does your state allow you to use a marriage license as ID? Is it spelled out for you or is it just you being satisfied they are who they say they are....
Again, check your handbook.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
|
|
|
|
cmihalik
New Jersey
26 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2010 : 1:41:45 PM
|
A couple of things. First, what do you say or do if the borrowers refuse to sign their names as they appear? The companies make it VERY clear that they want the signatures exactly as the name appears. Can we really ask them to sign a doc that is not their true signature? And how about the name variants? I've had people sign the variants the same as their normal signature (many times unrecognizable and looking nothing like it's written anyway.)
Next, what do you do if doc's are drawn up in a woman's maiden name, but her ID is in her married name? There is a DL she can present with her maiden name, but they've hole punched it so that it is invalid. She offered her marriage license. Does that suffice?
Thanks ya'll |
|
|
|
vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 8:43:01 PM
|
Some of the programming errors are interesting. Several times I've seen documents that have "error code _________" where the spouses name should be. It's worth at least a smile when the TC has provided explicit instructions to sign exactly as typed. Even more interesting for the few companies that threaten a deduction from your fee for not following directions.
It's nice to be able to check over documents before leaving and point these out when there is time. |
|
|
|
BobbiCT
Connecticut
135 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 05:05:52 AM
|
"..name typed as Smith John when the person's name is John Smith..."
Easy. SLOPPY programmers and no quality control. The programmer switched the data field codes; i.e., code for last name placed and then code for first name data field placed after it. The QC proofreader didn't check that line when a dummy loan package was printed to verify that all data fields are placed in all the blanks, in the right place, on the right line. Annoys me, whoever puts the closing package together just doesn't make a call and say, "hey, the first and last names are reversed on form X." It only takes a few minutes to change something that simple on one form in one location.
I used to help with the programming and the proofing for a few years, which worked out well since for the previous 10 years I was handling all the loan document closings and QC for compliance. I KNEW what should be where, so it was very quick and easy to make a correction. Still remember the last time HUD decided to revamp its documents - what a pain. Trying to get document sets out at the same time as beta testing the new drop-in form documents and data field placements. Everytime the government changes a form or the rules this morning's documents that have to go out interfere or cross paths with this afternoon's revised documents.
Bobbi in CT |
|
|
|
Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 7:39:55 PM
|
As long as we're on the subject, I'm seeing a lot of 'other than a/k/a statements' where they have the name typed as Smith John when the person's name is John Smith. It's usually just one doc with that--the rest are John Smith. What's with that?
|
|
|
|
kandy1099
Pennsylvania
121 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 12:28:35 PM
|
I normally tell people, if it is not them or could not be them in any way, cross it out and initial or just don't sign it. Most people/TC are good with that.
I had one guy who through a huge fit, and wanted to resign the whole loan over the Sign. Aff. Called the TC and they said just cross out the wrong names and initial next to it.
|
|
|
|
tomthenotary
Maryland
82 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2009 : 09:12:11 AM
|
The aka document for names and signatures can be somewhat confusing. What is the proper way to handle to document when a signer is not know by a name or names indicated on the document. Thanks
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| Mobile Notary / Signing Agent Discussion Forum |
© 123notary.com |
|
|
|
Tips for using the forum
The most important feature on the forum is the search box. You can look up a particular word, phrase, name of a company, and see a potentially large list of search results with which you can obtain data. Filters are also valuable. If you want to find popular posts, you can use the number of views filter. You can also see whats new with the active topics link. Email us at info@123notary.com if you need any help using the notary forum.
Resources
The notary public resource page is valuable as it has links to all of the free information pages for notaries. Pages linked to the resource page include a page that teaches you everything you need to know to get the most out of your listing. Another page teaches you all the secrets of getting paid. There is a link to our free list of signing companies. There is also a glossary, learning tools, and much more.
If you are a notary, the free tips we give are invaluable.
Popular pages
If you visit 123notary.com often, you might want to visit some of our most popular pages such as the California notary, Texas notary, Florida notary, and New York notary pages to browse the site. We also have valuable pages for notaries such as the free list of signing companies, and the resource page. Please also visit our get notarized and notarized letter page.
|
| |
AKA SIGNATURE DOCUMENT
