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  3 people liked this post.
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Melcolbert
California
21 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2012 : 12:52:48 PM
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Just want to say thank you to all who replied; it was a very helpful
discussion. I did not stamp the form and my conscience is clear. I did add a sticky note explaining why it was not notarized. I did sign it, however. Will let you know if it backfires:) |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 06:31:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by edelske
quote:
Originally posted by CopperheadVA
Many notaries sign this type of form in an individual capacity, leaving off the notary seal and possibly changing "notary public" to "signing agent" and initialing the change. It's asking you certify ID information which some states do allow for a notary to do, and some don't.
My state of VA now allows notaries to "verify facts" so I am now able to certify ID in my state. Before this was allowed, I would sign the form in an individual capacity and would put a sticky note on the document that said something like "This is not an allowed notarial act in Virginia".
I have a problem with "individual capacity". If I am hired because I am a Notary, paid as a Notary, and perform notary functions during the assignment - I am there because I am a Notary. To "strip off" my Notary Persona, selectively, on a per document basis; just does not "sit right" with me. If I can't process the document as a Notary, perhaps the document should be signed by someone else.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com
I sort of agree, Ken..however...keep in mind that if you're doing a loan signing you are not a notary through the whole thing - some functions are as a Signing Agent or, simply, individually (e.g. Renee's post - you act as a witness on the mortgage - an individual deal and not a notary or signing agent function).
Need to remember how many hats you're wearing during that loan signing. They're not all notary duties, they're not all signing agent duties. Multi-tasking at its best!!
Linda
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 05:42:01 AM
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I sign the doc as an individual, making no notation (as I'm sure they've seen a thousand notations on this already). I don't think being a notary excludes my being an individual as well.
Same with acting as a witness - again, that's as an individual. That comes into play on FL Deeds, for example - they allow the notary to act as one of the witnesses, and I do the witnessing as an individual. |
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CopperheadVA
Virginia
420 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 04:56:24 AM
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| Perhaps I should have said "Signing Agent/Specialist/Facilitator" capacity instead of "Individual" capacity. All of us have to make a choice as to how we ourselves are comfortable handling this particular type of document. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 4:52:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CopperheadVA
Many notaries sign this type of form in an individual capacity, leaving off the notary seal and possibly changing "notary public" to "signing agent" and initialing the change. It's asking you certify ID information which some states do allow for a notary to do, and some don't.
My state of VA now allows notaries to "verify facts" so I am now able to certify ID in my state. Before this was allowed, I would sign the form in an individual capacity and would put a sticky note on the document that said something like "This is not an allowed notarial act in Virginia".
I have a problem with "individual capacity". If I am hired because I am a Notary, paid as a Notary, and perform notary functions during the assignment - I am there because I am a Notary. To "strip off" my Notary Persona, selectively, on a per document basis; just does not "sit right" with me. If I can't process the document as a Notary, perhaps the document should be signed by someone else.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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CopperheadVA
Virginia
420 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 5:10:41 PM
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Many notaries sign this type of form in an individual capacity, leaving off the notary seal and possibly changing "notary public" to "signing agent" and initialing the change. It's asking you certify ID information which some states do allow for a notary to do, and some don't.
My state of VA now allows notaries to "verify facts" so I am now able to certify ID in my state. Before this was allowed, I would sign the form in an individual capacity and would put a sticky note on the document that said something like "This is not an allowed notarial act in Virginia". |
Edited by - CopperheadVA on 02/27/2012 5:15:21 PM |
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Melcolbert
California
21 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 3:54:56 PM
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| Doing my FIRST SIGNING today. Went over the pkg. about 8 times. One form threw me, the Identification Affidavit. It is such a strangely worded doc because it starts out saying, "Being Duly Sworn and says that he/she was the closing agent for the borrowers...obtained and observed photographic ID etc" Leaving aside the whole "agent" debate, at the bottom it asks for my signature and seal. It sounds like I am being asked to administer myself an oath and notarize my own oath!? Is this a common form? I'm going to complete it but it sure seems screwy to me. |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 11:30:54 AM
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Lets please not confuse a closer with a signer. The closer has some qualifications far above and beyond what we do as notaries.
I think that there should be no such term as signing agent as its just a name that the NNA came up with because it sounded "cool". I think that the term, "signing facilitator", or "signing specialist" would be a much more accurate way to describe what we do |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 08:35:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BobbiCT
"Who can give a good formal definition of what a signing agent is?"
SUPERHERO
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
Edited by - dfye@mcttelecom.com on 03/30/2008 08:35:40 AM |
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BobbiCT
Connecticut
135 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 08:26:04 AM
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"Who can give a good formal definition of what a signing agent is?"
My personal opinion: It is a made-up generic title that started with the National Association of Signing Agents, which morphed into Notary Signing Agent when the NNA bought NASA, because there is no national standard/definition or even state-wide standard/definition for what we do. A title used to be defined individually as circumstances dictate so no one thinks we are attorneys who can give legal opinions and advice on the documents being signed.
If you worked in the sports world, a "signing agent" is the person (aka "agent") that represents the baseball, football or whatever player during contract negotiations; i.e., who negotiates the "signed" contract.
To me, other than "closing agent" (which in CT translates into attorney), it doesn't matter what you call me as long as your check comes in 30 days and clears the bank. |
Edited by - BobbiCT on 03/30/2008 08:26:54 AM |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 06:16:28 AM
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For Linda: Why, if we're 'specialists', do we have to ask what kind of cert? Because that's the LAW. Besides which, that doesn't happen in a loan, anyway. The lender/TC has provided the type of cert. they want.
And...Renee... taking a concept from real estate... whether you 'specialize' in homes, vacant land, commercial properties, you still have but one official title: Real Estate Broker/Salesman. Same, imo, is true of Notary Public. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2008 : 02:20:19 AM
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I'm a little confused - are you saying Missouri requires a TPL (such as Maryland, for example) for NSA's? I wasn't aware that had happened there.
Or - are you saying Missouri requires "Closing AGENTS" to have a TPL? The word 'Agent' is key - and NSA's are most definitely not only nobody's agent, we're definitely not a "Closing AGENT", which is a/k/a the "Settlement Agent". That is generally (and simply put here) defined as the party who receives* and disburses the loan funds.
*this is the sticking point in at least one state (is it Virginia?), where it was determined that accepting a borrower's check for short-to-close funds equals "receiving funds". Most other states hold the opinion that "receiving funds" is defined by whomever the LENDER sends the loan funds to, and who disburses those proceeds.
Otherwise, I think we're talking the same stuff here - no, we're not agents of anyone and yes, the execution of the loan docs is PART of the process the whole planet refers to as "the closing".
Having been a "closer" in various different capacities, I know that the INDUSTRY and the consumer understands/accepts that there are many different definitions to the generic term "closer"; a closer working for the lender, a mtg broker's closer, a closer working for a title agent, and a mobile closer all do very different jobs. They're still all called "closers". |
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NotarySharon
Missouri
26 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 1:45:18 PM
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Here in Missouri a "closer" must have a title producer license, as it is part and parcel of what the title insurance companies do. If an attorney performs a closing, that attorney does not have to have a title producer license. A closer in Missouri prepares the HUD according to the Lender's Instructions, and as a second responsibility, supervises the signing of them. Their job is two fold.
As a Mobile Notary, I consider myself acting only in the capacity as an extension of the Closer, in that I facillitate the signing of the documents. Most times the closers are not local, but rather from a title company from any state in the US.
I am hired by title companies, but most often by Mobile Notary companies, who are hired by the title companies. Ultimately I still consider the notary signing as only a part of the closing. I do not represent anyone, but rather I am an independent contractor who follows the instructions from the Closing Company or the Title Company. They follow the lenders' closing instructions.
I don't consider myself an agent for anyone. Most of the closing companies I work for give precise instructions as to how to answer a borrower's question, and most times that involves calling the person they direct me to.
As a rule of thumb, I contact the closing company who hired me first, and then follow their instructions. Therefore I do not consider myself a Closing Agent. I am a Notary Public, who specializes in loan document execution.
However, I do get hired to notarize other documents, but I think loan documents are the meat of this thread.
Sharon Hopkins |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 11:50:04 AM
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I realize most people disagree with me on this, but I just don't have the same take on the word "closer" or the implications. What we do IS a part of the closing process - and closings are a process, not a single procedure or act. I also think it's a term that is easily understood by borrowers, as well as a term already used inside by our clients. Within any definition you can find relative to real estate closings, you will see our part of the closing process clearly represented. I don't see any reason to fear the implications.
I also embrace the "closer" part rather than wrapping myself around the "notary" part, which to me is incidental to being a mobile closer. It's not a priority or positioned kind of thing - I am a mobile closer, and in order to BE one, I am also a notary. They just go hand-in-hand; one not over the other, one not more important or less important, just together. However - the notary part, IMHO, is an assumption - all mobile closers are a notary, but not all notaries are a mobile closer.
I look for ways to distinguish myself from the second group of notaries, and to try and put an emphasis on what it is that I do - and what I do is perform mobile loan closings, within the context of the whole process. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 09:36:21 AM
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"Notary Signing Specialist." I Like It!!!
Except for one thing right off the top of my head (and I can hear the signer/borrower asking this)...if we're signing specialists, why do they have to tell US what type of certificate is required...we're the specialist, not them...MHO
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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Edited by - LindaH on 03/29/2008 09:37:18 AM |
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jlissem
New Jersey
139 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 06:16:54 AM
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Lee
"Signing Specialist, anyone"
I refer to myself as a Notary Signing Specialist. |
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jlissem
New Jersey
139 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 06:12:05 AM
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| In N.J. a "closer" for r/e transactions has to be a licenced title producer. |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 06:07:15 AM
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| "Closer" is a loaded word, too. I don't 'close' loans either. I do not prepare the paperwork or disburse the funds. I only get 'em signed & send them on to the co. that does the above. I believe that the words agent and closer are concepts that the general public thinks they understand--but they understand it wrong in respect to what we do. Words are important and I'd sure like to see a more accurate title than what is now out there. Signing Specialist, anyone? |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2008 : 02:34:35 AM
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Agree, and also abhor the term "Notary Signing Agent" and for more reasons than stated here. We - as an industry - would probably be wise to move away from the term, even in the absence of another widely-used and recognized term. It certainly didn't help us to see this label picked up and used within the Uniform General Closing Instructions, either.
We are NOT agents of anyone, as we do NOT perform any actions on behalf of any principle. Anyone with deep pockets and large legal teams might contend that we have an implied, severely limited agent relationship with both lender and title - which is WHY I believe we should move away from using the term ourselves (bolsters that potential argument).
Here in the MI/Mid-west, I'd only heard the term "Mobile Closer" used inside the lending/title industry (conversationally, and on Huds). I never heard the term "NSA" until I actually BECAME one - and it's a term that was perpetrated by the NSA's, not the lending/title industry.
Of course, there exists no legal or standard definition as it is not a recognized job title, and there is no state for which any definition, license, or specific credentialing is in place. Until that happens, we'll keep having this debate.
The answer to Jeremy's question "Who can give a good formal definition of what a signing agent is?" is "At this point, anyone!" |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 8:22:20 PM
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Or---and I admit I'm really pushing the envelope here---you could go with definition #3 from the dictionary:
Main Entry: agent
Pronunciation: \#712;â-j#601;nt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin agent-, agens, from Latin, present participle of agere to drive, lead, act, do; akin to Old Norse aka to travel in a vehicle, Greek agein to drive, lead
Date: 15th century
1: one that acts or exerts power
2 a: something that produces or is capable of producing an effect : an active or efficient cause b: a chemically, physically, or biologically active principle
3: a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result
4: one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: as a: a representative, emissary, or official of a government <crown agent> <federal agent> b: one engaged in undercover activities (as espionage) : spy <secret agent> c: a business representative (as of an athlete or entertainer) <a theatrical agent>
5: a computer application designed to automate certain tasks (as gathering information online)
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 8:04:05 PM
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| I, too, dislike & disagree with the term Notary Signing Agent as we are not anyone's Agent, however, "Notary Public who specializes in the notarization of loan documents and knows where to find what in said documents, but are not allowed to explain why because we are not agents of the Lender/TC/SS" is a real mouthful. History lesson: The term was coined by the lady who started the National Association of Signing Agents back around 1998 or so---and then later sold it to the NNA--who continued to promote the term. Now, like the QWERTY keyboard, it looks like we're stuck with it forever. |
Edited by - Lee-AR on 03/28/2008 8:06:29 PM |
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jlissem
New Jersey
139 Posts |
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jlissem
New Jersey
139 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 4:33:59 PM
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If a Notary represents themselves as an "agent" it implies certain legal ramifications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(law)#Liability_of_agent_to_third_party
Jim Lissemore, Pres
ww.Flexo-Notaries.com |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 4:28:31 PM
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| The notary is not legally acting as an agent. The term "agent" is just a word used to talk about the loan signing profession. The signing agent is simply a notary who knows about loan signing and is legally nothing more than a notary public for the state they are commissioned in. |
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jlissem
New Jersey
139 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 4:26:10 PM
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A Notary public can not act as an "agent" for any party to a transaction.
An agent is a person or entity that represents a principal in a transaction with a third party. The role of an "agent" is to represent the interests of their principal in the transaction, which violates the role of a Notary as a a disinterested party.
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
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