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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2008 : 09:29:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
an otherwise complete notarial ack. that is missing the WORD "venue" would still have the componants of the venue, represented with "notary of [state], acting in county of [county]"
I don't think I have actually seen the word "venue" on more than one or two documents; in several thousand. It's there, we know what to call it; but most times it is unlabeled.
Ken |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 06:34:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
Bobbi - excellent job explaining it all and thanks so much for sharing your expertise. Spins off another question in my head: Do you suppose this has anything to do with the reason why Promissory Notes are NOT notarized, so as to not have any venue 'issues' whatsoever? Thinking about it, all the Arb Riders I've seen are riders to the Note, not the mtg.
Linda - see, don't you think it's still a judgement call, (and not MY judgement call ); it could be argued by someone qualified to debate statutes that an otherwise complete notarial ack. that is missing the WORD "venue" would still have the componants of the venue, represented with "notary of [state], acting in county of [county]"
Again, just more over-thinking here and nothing I'm intending to discuss with anyone but my colleagues. Enjoying the conversations, thanks to all!
Maybe a judgment call in other states, Renee, but IMO not here - the FL Notary Manual is clear - that one statement acknowledges that many formats exist, so as long as the 7 elements required by FL statute are contained somewhere in the cert (one of the 7 being state and county) then we can accept it as complete. JMHO
Not a lawyer, yada, yada, yada...
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 01:31:39 AM
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Bobbi - excellent job explaining it all and thanks so much for sharing your expertise. Spins off another question in my head: Do you suppose this has anything to do with the reason why Promissory Notes are NOT notarized, so as to not have any venue 'issues' whatsoever? Thinking about it, all the Arb Riders I've seen are riders to the Note, not the mtg.
Linda - see, don't you think it's still a judgement call, (and not MY judgement call); it could be argued by someone qualified to debate statutes that an otherwise complete notarial ack. that is missing the WORD "venue" would still have the componants of the venue, represented with "notary of [state], acting in county of [county]"
Again, just more over-thinking here and nothing I'm intending to discuss with anyone but my colleagues. Enjoying the conversations, thanks to all! |
Edited by - Renee on 03/28/2008 01:36:40 AM |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 10:02:43 AM
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The FL manual defines venue as "State of Florida, County of _______"
and further provides the seven elements required for a complete notarial certificate....after listing the seven required elements, there is this statement:
"Some notarial certificates may vary in format, but any certificate should contain all these elements"
So, IMO, in FL, as long as the venue is clearly stated somewhere in the certificate, the certificate is complete. MHO
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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BobbiCT
Connecticut
135 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 06:34:49 AM
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"If the doc were called into court, would the venue be legally established via the info in the notarial cert?"
Notarization venue may not matter. It depends on the "contract," text within "ruling" legal documents, and case law when the deal comes under dispute.
For example, almost all legal documents that I see notarized (or not) state somewhere within the document "...governed by the laws of Florida" (choose your state or country) even though the entire transaction, including every person signing, took place in Connecticut. Also, could be a separate arbitration agreement that determines which laws apply.
I see the notarization block as proof that signer came before a Notary Public, provided identification under the laws of the notarization block venue, and proof that the document was signed on that date by that individual. Nothing more. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 08:10:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
I wasn't implying that I don't always add venue - it was just a hypothetical question for the sake of occupying myself while I'm grounded (broke my leg, can't do anything much except make a PITA out of myself)
Love it "...above my paygrade" YEP, mine too, was just over-thinking the situation (which I'm just SO good at!) and wondered if anyone knew the legal ramifications.
Hehe..overthinking the situation...my attorney boss in CT hated my "what if...." questions...mostly, I think, because he couldn't answer them..<G>
Glad to see you're at least keeping your sense of humor there, Crash...err...Renee...<G>
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 08:04:16 AM
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I wasn't implying that I don't always add venue - it was just a hypothetical question for the sake of occupying myself while I'm grounded (broke my leg, can't do anything much except make a PITA out of myself)
Love it "...above my paygrade" YEP, mine too, was just over-thinking the situation (which I'm just SO good at!) and wondered if anyone knew the legal ramifications. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 07:21:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
If the doc were called into court, would the venue be legally established via the info in the notarial cert?
Here we get into "judgement calls" and I suspect the results will vary with who is looking at the document. Where I live, New York County (Manhattan) the County Clerk's office is VERY strict. I doubt that they would look past the top of the document for the venue in the body. Even if pointed out - I "think" they would reject it for not meeting the proper "format". Again, your mileage may vary. For me to get an Authentication of the Notary Sig - I would have to find - in the codes - that the standard model can vary as to position of essential components - unlikely in New York State.
As to what takes place in a courtroom - that's way above my pay grade - a standard cop out for not knowing the answer!
Ken |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 04:50:16 AM
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Agree completely, Ken & Linda - but have a question that spirals off this:
The venue establishes the legal jurisdiction for the subject document. WHAT IF the venue was missing (specifically labeled as such), but the notarial cert implied the venue (reiterates where the notarization was done, and let's assume for the sake of this question that it DOES, that it includes words to the effect of 'by me, a notary for this state in this county, acting in this county')
If the doc were called into court, would the venue be legally established via the info in the notarial cert? |
Edited by - Renee on 03/26/2008 04:51:33 AM |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 5:41:17 PM
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Linda,
I think we posted at the same time.
I AM SURE we would both handle the situation legally.
I KNOW I am very afraid of being involved in litigation, and always choose the safest course of action.
AND - I very much enjoy reading your posts !
Ken |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 5:09:55 PM
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Linda,
Will this suffice: (New York State Law) Bold added by me
§170.10 Forgery in the second degree.
A person is guilty of forgery in the second degree when, with intent to defraud, deceive or injure another, he falsely makes, completes or alters a written instrument which is or purports to be, or which is calculated to become or to represent if completed:
1. A deed, will, codicil, contract, assignment, commercial instrument, or other instrument which does or may evidence, create, transfer, terminate or otherwise affect a legal right, interest, obligation or status; or
2. A public record, or an instrument filed or required or authorized by law to be filed in or with a public office or public servant; or
3. A written instrument officially issued or created by a public office, public servant or governmental instrumentality.
Forgery in the second degree is a class D felony. (ps: 7 years)
The intent to "deceive" could be argued that the intent was to appear that the Venue was written by the notary - not sure, but a lawyer it would appear to me - would certainly have something to "work with".
Ken |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 4:24:28 PM
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I also disagree with you Jeremy. No one should touch another notary's work. Honestly, the original notary obviously was not very good at what he/she did. There should never be any room for error when it comes to notarization. That is one of the reasons we hold our commission is it not?
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 3:47:52 PM
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Linda,
Verbal or written permission - there is NOWAY my handwriting would appear on a notarization not done completly by me.
I really doubt if "who can change what" is covered in code but will try to find something that applies - it's a good idea to check the laws.
If someone changes my notarizations - I would not like it - but I certainly would have no responsibility for the action either.....
Ken |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 3:41:48 PM
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Dr. J.
I see this every day at the County Clerk's office when folks bring in documents that have been notarized for Authentication. The clerk always tells them that they must take it to the notary who performed the notarization and that no one else is permitted to change the notary section other than the one who signed as notary of record.
I could not re-do as the notarizations in question for persons not present - I was adding a third notarization to an already 2 notarization document. Thus there was no way for me to "redo". I for one would not be happy to learn that someone has changed the notary section of something that I signed.
Yes, you are certainly right that it is a "minor revision" - but "once the door is opened" then it becomes a "judgement call" in each case. The Venue is really the notary's assurance that they are operating within their juristriction and not "out of state". MANY is the times I have heard at the County Clerk's office "cant I just write it in" for the venue, the "sworn to before me" for the date, etc. Each time the County Clerk tells them who MUST make any change.
"It might be better form to let the client just handwrite those venue words in themselves."
That seems to imply that I would be in the position of suggesting to the client that they are allowed to write in the notary section. No sir, I dont have the authority to write there (not being the notary of record) and I certainly would never suggest to someone else to do so - other than the notary of record. Sure Dr. J. - it's a small thing - but I have - at ALL costs - made it a very major issue to make sure I am never in a courtroom with a stern faced judge asking me to explain my actions. My E&O does not cover bad judgement.
The public relies on our professional training and skill (not for legal advise of course) but we DO know what is right and what is wrong regarding notarizations (at least in our home state). I'm going to have to disagree with you totally on your take on this. The right thing (and a lesson well learned it would be) is for the notary who goofed to "rush over" and fix it.
All notaries should be aware that in a court of law - the attorney looks to the handwritten actions of the "least trained" (eg: the notary) if they wish to "break the deal" - on the basis of a flawed notarization. How would it look with a different handwriting, and different pen used (the notary probably has the original pen). But I digress into the mechanics of what I consider improper at best, and some may consider forgery at worst. Not for this notary. I stand by my call (unlike my foolish use of blue ink - once) and feel I am on the "high ground" morally. I am sure that in well over 10 thousand notarizations I have made clerical errors - only a robot would not. But to suggest to a "citizen" (non-notary) - my client - that they can "touch up" a notarization sounds like tremendous legal exposure - borders on (really crosses the line) on giving "legal advise" - as I would be telling them "what to do". If I could re-do naturally I would have but the right affiants were not available. The problem must go back to its source - the notary of record.
Ken |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 3:37:39 PM
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VERY interesting subject...
My personal feeling is I wouldn't touch another notary's certificate -that's their domain, especially if the prior notarizations took place in an entirely different state. On the same note, I wouldn't want TC or SS to alter my certs when they get any packages back (which I've read elsewhere is standard practice for one TC here in FL).
I'll disagree here with you, Jeremy...I feel it's more than juat a "clerical" error....improper notarizations can invalidate the document and that's not a chance anyone would want to take.]
Ken, does your handbook or state law address this issue? That's where you should look first for answers. You have to follow that no matter WHAT we experts here say..:)
However, that being said...I'll throw in my .02..In this instant case, first off I wouldn't feel bad for the first notary or worry about protecting him/her. If the handbook or law doesn't address how to handle it, what I might have done is call the first notary from the table in front of the client (speakerphone if possible), tell the notary what happened and tell him he needed to revisit the client immediately. If he/she didn't want to do that..then get his permission to correct his foul-up and complete the venue. If you want to stay out of it completely...then you did right - refer him back to the first notary.
JMHO
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 2:48:11 PM
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| Do you really think its illegal to make a minor renovation to "boilerplate" wording that would not change the integrity of the notarization in any way, nor would it substantially change the content or significance of the notarization? It is just a clerical mistake. It might be better form to let the client just handwrite those venue words in themselves. Or just redo the whole notarization with the signer. Those are my humble opinions. This is an interesting point. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 11:27:15 AM
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It was an important trust document. I was called to notarize the final (of 3) signatures on the document. Unfortunately the administrator of the trust was flying out of town early the next morning for additional trust business. The "other notary" had forgotten to include the Venue (State of ..... County of .....) on the rather slopply handwritten notarizations of the first two signers.
Did I do the right thing, what would you have done?
What I did:
I called the defect to the client, explained what was wrong. He asked me to correct the flaw; which I could not do, and explained why. He asked what he should do. It was 10PM with him having an early morning flight. I told him to call the prior notary (he had their card) and insist that they take a taxi immediately to his location to fix the notarization. I did not see any legal alternative. What would you do?
Whould you inform your client of a prior notary's flaw? If so, in this specific case what "how to proceed" advice would you give?
ken
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Suggestions wanted: when the other notary goofs
