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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2012 : 03:06:58 AM
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A copy of a Certified Copy of any public record wouldn't be authenticated by any state, for the reasons cited - it's a copy. Some states (including CA) will provide Authentication of the signature of a notary w/out validating the contents of the document notarized.
NY limits Authentication to public records - to have any public record Authenticated, it must be the correctly certified (by the county) Copy.
I maintain, however, that there is no law against a person making a photo-copy of a Birth Cert (or a photograph, or whatever), attaching their own statement of fact to that copy, and asking a notary to provide a jurat for that statement of fact. Whether or not that jurat or the statement it is attached to can be Authenticated, or will be acceptable to the receiver is a separate issue. If it is unacceptable to the receiver, or for Authentication does not in itself make it illegal.
The general public - including people who work in offices, conduct business, etc. - often don't have a solid understanding of what a notarization is or what valid legal effect it has on something. I see plenty of instances where a person in some office here in the US asks another person to send them a "notarized copy" of X (Birth Cert, D/L, Passport, whatever). In MI, I can not perform a Copy Certification anyway, so this described method is used (attached sworn statement/jurat). It might seem pointless to me, but if that's what the signer and the receiver want and it's not illegal for me to do - so be it. I see this primarily in situations where someone is applying for a job or a rental property. It satisfies their purposes. |
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notaryslife
California
348 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 9:05:43 PM
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Hi - sorry it took so long for me to respond, I appreciate your sharing the info. I expected to get an email but apparently hadn't subscribed to this thread so I thought no one responded.
The issue with the birth copy cert and birth certificate is it's impossible to copy the original since it's on file with the city. It would be construed as unlawful for us to notarize any statement stating it's a copy of the original and we're responsible as notaries to know this fact. The CA SOS provides info not to notarize these documents because the original's on file with the city.
Thanks for the other info.
quote:
Originally posted by notaryslife
I hesitate to post this because the lady I spoke with I like so I don't mean to be critical of her. It's just that I noted her spreading misinformation as a well established California notary commission test class instructor. I took the 6 hour course and here is something she said I wasn't brave enough to correct her in class over:
1. You can notarize a birth certificate using the Document Custodian jurat.
She said this when showing what a notary can do to get around it when they bring in photos they need notarized, etec. I was about to correct her, then thought I wasn't that brave to do in class and I didn't do it outside class either.
In a personal conversation she told me under absolute times, even when I insisted it wasn't so that:
1. The law is absolutely 3 day recission, no additional days are allowed even if the lending company grants it.
This is completely wrong and she did not accept my comments if the lending companies want to extend the time period, it's up to them. I learned it the hard way when I reduced the days believing it was an error over the last Christmas/New Years holiday period. I had to go back again to correct the dates and have the ROC re-signed.
In summary, when someone is a teacher they aren't open to being corrected. They are spreading misinformation and it's tough to get through to them and their egos that they're wrong.
The California notary commission test was quite easy although I didn't ace it. It seemed to be designed for dummies but a couple of the questions were really unfair and confusing that would throw new people off.
Would any of you challenge the teacher, and in front of her class? I saw no point, it wasn't worth it to me. If she wants to go around doing that, it's not my responsibility to correct her is it?
Sincerely yours,
Notary's Life
Sincerely yours,
Notary's Life |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 6:28:15 PM
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Renee said:
However, there is no law against a person making a copy of their Certified Copy, attaching that to their own statement of fact about it being 'a copy of a true Certified Copy', and asking a notary public to take their oath/affirmation and provide a jurat notarial cert for their statement of fact.
In New York City it is prohibited to notarize what you describe. It's not in the NY State Notary Law (link on my site), but it is nevertheless prohibited by the County Clerk. We have a procedure (to obtain an Apostille) that requires the notaries signature to receive an "Authentication" from the County Clerk. They will not authenticate the notary if the notary notarized an "aff of copy" signed by the holder of the vital record. The intent is to force obtaining cert copies from bureau of vital records to thwart fraud (and let the city make a few bucks issuing the cert copy). I know, I learned this when I did exactly as you describe and received a stern reprimand from the County Clerk - something I will not do again.
Thus, there are "official" and "un-official" "laws" - and following both is the best path.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 04:52:11 AM
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Well, IMO if you disagree with someone about something that is factual (not opinion, not subjective), then presenting just the facts and backing that up with citations from originating sources is best.
For example, in your post you disagreed with the instructor's use of a Doc Custodian cert being used as an end-run for a copy of a Birth Certificate.
The language you use is a bit subjective, but by way of example I'll make a few assumptions...
The only original birth certificate resides within the county records, and the paper copies we receive are certified (by the county) copies. This is true of all vital records, therefore it is impossible for a notary to create a true "certified copy" of any vital record - it is only a copy of a copy. In CA, notaries are only allowed to make Certified Copies of Powers of Attorney.
Info re: CA vital records:
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/certlic/birthdeathmar/Pages/default.aspx
CA Notary Handbook:
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2012.pdf
However, there is no law against a person making a copy of their Certified Copy, attaching that to their own statement of fact about it being 'a copy of a true Certified Copy', and asking a notary public to take their oath/affirmation and provide a jurat notarial cert for their statement of fact.
For your second illustration of misinformation, this is easy - the FDIC grants us all ready access to the TILA, and I cite from that, adding my OWN emphasis of the key word:
c) Delay of creditor's performance. Unless a consumer waives the right of rescission under paragraph (e) of this section, no money shall be disbursed other than in escrow, no services shall be performed and no materials delivered until the rescission period has expired and the creditor is reasonably satisfied that the consumer has not rescinded.
(see: http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1400.html )
If a creditor feels more "reasonably satisfied" of the consumer's intent by extending the rescission period beyond the minimum required by law, and disclosing that date to the consumer - the law is satisfied.
In summary - I would/will/do provide factual information with proper citation anywhere I find misinformation being stated as fact. When you can cite something from the proper source, it helps keep the debate fact-based, and ALSO provides you with the best way of making certain you are actually correct with your facts.  |
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notaryslife
California
348 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 08:01:34 AM
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I hesitate to post this because the lady I spoke with I like so I don't mean to be critical of her. It's just that I noted her spreading misinformation as a well established California notary commission test class instructor. I took the 6 hour course and here is something she said I wasn't brave enough to correct her in class over:
1. You can notarize a birth certificate using the Document Custodian jurat.
She said this when showing what a notary can do to get around it when they bring in photos they need notarized, etec. I was about to correct her, then thought I wasn't that brave to do in class and I didn't do it outside class either.
In a personal conversation she told me under absolute times, even when I insisted it wasn't so that:
1. The law is absolutely 3 day recission, no additional days are allowed even if the lending company grants it.
This is completely wrong and she did not accept my comments if the lending companies want to extend the time period, it's up to them. I learned it the hard way when I reduced the days believing it was an error over the last Christmas/New Years holiday period. I had to go back again to correct the dates and have the ROC re-signed.
In summary, when someone is a teacher they aren't open to being corrected. They are spreading misinformation and it's tough to get through to them and their egos that they're wrong.
The California notary commission test was quite easy although I didn't ace it. It seemed to be designed for dummies but a couple of the questions were really unfair and confusing that would throw new people off.
Would any of you challenge the teacher, and in front of her class? I saw no point, it wasn't worth it to me. If she wants to go around doing that, it's not my responsibility to correct her is it?
Sincerely yours,
Notary's Life |
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What To Do When Notary Teachers Spread Misinfo?
