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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2011 : 07:07:03 AM
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The statement in the 'definition' is very misleading, IMPO:quote:
However, it is common for a signer to swear an oath that a copy of a birth certificate is a true, correct, and complete copy. To perform such a notary act, you would need a form called a certified copy by document custodian where the signer can swear to the correctness and completeness of the copy of their birth certificate or other vital record.
In many matters, the authentication and certification of a public record must be made by the originator/custodian or record holder of the original record.
For example, having a birth certificate authenticated for use in a foreign country. For an apostille, only the state of issuance needs to authenticate the document signer, and they will not authenticate a copy of a vital or public record that was "attested" or "certified" by anyone but the official state source, e.g. Department of Health, Bureau of Vital Statistics. For documents not subject to an Apostille (countries not signatories of or subscribe to the specific Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents), the 'chain of authentication' usually won't make it past the state's Department of State, and certainly not acceptable by the US Department of State.
This is not to preclude the use of a "Certification by Document Custodian" if the recipient of the document is willing to accept it. It's just that in reality, this type of certification is often not acceptable for public records.
The CDC has a complete list of where to write for a copy of a vital record. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/w2w.htm
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2011 : 10:46:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FlaNotary
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Robert,
Pardon a bit of curiosity; why the above and how do you use it?
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 5:16:32 PM
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Plenty of comical answers here so I thought I'd add my own:
Never name your child a verb...you'll look ridiculous saying things like: "Neil, stand up. Neil, Stand Up. Neil, Stand UP! NEIL, STAND UP!!!"
Some of the other comments really are "seriously" funny!
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
Follow me on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/aquicknote |
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cmihalik
New Jersey
26 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 11:48:05 AM
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I present a Hold Harmless Agreement at every signing I do. I have anyone signing doc's to date, print and sign their names. The agreement basically states that I don't work for the bank, I can't answer questions, explain terms or the legality of the doc's, however, if I know where the answer is located within the documentation, I can point that out. I also include the verbiage that they didn't ask me any questions, I didn't answer any questions nor did I offer advice or try to explain the doc's
I did this because I've been seeing notaries are getting sued or named in suits at the very least. Additionally, I've noticed on the Agreement forms we have to sign in order to register with signing companies that they are held harmless and we take on full responsibility. I want to make sure that I cover myself.
Do you think this Hold Harmless Agreement will stand up in court? |
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 07:37:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
Citations to support your position Robert...
The Certificate of Live Birth form used in Florida places the suffix in the box for "Child's Name". The suffix is therefore a part of the legal name. What further citations are needed?
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 06:10:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FlaNotary
If a suffix is included on the birth certificate, it's part of the legal name. I see no reason to argue this further, as I know that I'm correct.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com
Wow....
Citations to support your position Robert...the one you began with "IMO"...
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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n/a
Illinois
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 5:35:02 PM
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Seriously Maple, don't waste your time here....you've proven your point most audaciously...(don't often get to use that word in a sentence!)  |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 4:42:01 PM
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It is indeed fruitless to try to reason with those people who know they are correct.
quote:
Originally posted by FlaNotary
If a suffix is included on the birth certificate, it's part of the legal name. I see no reason to argue this further, as I know that I'm correct.
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 4:23:28 PM
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If a suffix is included on the birth certificate, it's part of the legal name. I see no reason to argue this further, as I know that I'm correct.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 3:39:13 PM
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An appeals court in Texas found "The suffix "Jr." does not form a part of a name." http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17209401876387309547&q=texas name suffix -domain&hl=en&as_sdt=40000000000002
Maybe it's different in Florida. Maybe some other court has overturned that Texas case. But it isn't absurd to think a Texas appeals court might just be right.
As for law dictionaries, which are sometimes followed by courts if there isn't something more important to rely on, Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed., under the Name entry, has several sub-entries. Some of them are:
full name. An individual's personal name, second or middle name or initials (if any), and surname arranged in a customary order. [Black's goes on to explain about Western and Eastern name order.]
legal name. A person's full name as recognized in law. A legal name is usu. acquired at birth or through a court order. There are no rules governing a legal name's length or constitution; it may be a single name (e. g., Prince) or include words not generally used in human names (e. g., Moon Unit)
personal name. An individual's name or names given at birth, as distinguished from a family name. (in the Western tradition) first name; Also termed given name; (in the Christian tradition) Christian name.
surname. The family name automatically bestowed at birth, acquired by marriage, or adopted by choice. Although in many cultures a person's a persons surname is traditionally the father's surname, there is nothing to prevent someone from taking the mother's surname or a combination of the parent's surname.
My take from this is that (a) Black's gives all the traditional components of a name, and says nothing about the suffix, and (b) tradition and custom are relevant in name issues, so a notary would not be wrong to take into account that some families traditionally "move up" when an older relative with the same name dies.
quote:
Originally posted by FlaNotary
quote:
Originally posted by Maple
Thus I would give no weight to the format of a birth certificate worksheet or a birth certificate when trying to figure out what a legal name is.
That's absurd. Every legal document is based on the name on the birth certificate - particularly now with the REAL ID requirements.
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 10:09:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maple
Thus I would give no weight to the format of a birth certificate worksheet or a birth certificate when trying to figure out what a legal name is.
That's absurd. Every legal document is based on the name on the birth certificate - particularly now with the REAL ID requirements.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 09:09:07 AM
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I don't know how the Florida birth certificate was drafted, but many states follow the birth certificate recommended by the National Vital Statistics System. See
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vital_certificate_revisions.htm
I have read the documents that describe the drafting process of the current version, and it is clear to me that the people drafting it were mostly medical people who wanted to gather statistics about the health of newborns so they could detect medical risk factors. There is hardly any interest in legal matters. Thus I would give no weight to the format of a birth certificate worksheet or a birth certificate when trying to figure out what a legal name is.
I think that whether a suffix is part of a legal name or not is relevant to notaries is how much evidence we need to decide whether we can notarize a document that is before us that contains a suffix. If it isn't part of the legal name, the standard could be as low as an absence of any suspicious circumstances plus photo ID with no suffix. If it is, then personal knowledge, credible witnesses, or ID documents acceptable in the relevant state are required. |
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 08:22:49 AM
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Maple - You are just flat out incorrect.
In Florida, the "Certificate of Live Birth" form (DH 511) has boxes for data entry. Box #1 is described as "CHILD'S NAME (First, Middle, Last, Suffix)" and the suffix is included in that box following the child's surname. It is a part of the child's legal name. No case law or statute will tell me otherwise. If it is on the birth certificate in the box for "Child's Name", it is part of the name.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 07:24:37 AM
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Because a law, statute or precept does not address an issue directly, does not mean that it is not addressed elsewhere, often by the courts as case law.
The process of naming a child in the state of Florida, must be within the confines of the statute. However, the inclusion or absence of a suffix, e.g. Jr, III, etc. does not imply that the suffix is not a part of the name. The issue then boils down to what constitutes the 'surname'.
From the dictionary of American and English law, "Any one may take on himself whatever surname or as many surnames as he pleases, without statutory license". So therefore, imo, the suffix does or can become a part of the surname. But, it must be remembered that a persons name (given name, surname, suffix, etc.) is what that person, or parent or guardian so chooses.
In reality, this is nothing but an exercise in academics. The name of the person is whatever he/she deems so, and for our purposes, what the person can offer as acceptable proof.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 06:52:56 AM
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So lets say a man was born in Connecticut but is visiting Florida and wants to get a document notarized. Whether the suffix is part of the name is undecided in Connecticut. See fourth paragraph of
http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/Notebooks/Pathfinders/NamesandNameChanges/names.htm
There is a hint in Florida law that the suffix is not part of the name. See Florida statutes 382.013, Birth registration, part 3, Name of child. There are specific procedures given to resolve disagreements between the parents about the given names and surname, but nothing about the suffix. You might respond, "but they don't need to address that, because it's automatic if the son's name is the same as the father." Not so. The uncle might be John Doe III. The mother might want John Doe IV and the father might want just plain John Doe.
So if there is any question about the suffix, the poor notary not only has to figure out if there are any rules, but whether the rules of the signers place of residence apply, or the rules of the notary's state apply. |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 05:28:14 AM
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The reason for multiple ID's being needed by lenders is because they (the lender) must check financial histories of the individual. That history may be based on their currently used name and any aliases, all of which may be variations of a "legal" name.
You cite the example of John Doe, Jr. as shown on one's birth certificate. Obviously, by definition, that constitutes a legal name. But, do not discount the general use of "John Doe" (sans suffix) which may appear on his driver's license, even social security card and other commonly used documents. Does that make the use of "John Doe" illegal? Of course not. The dropping of a suffix, such as Jr., is fairly common among men whose father has passed away. Their birth certificate provides the legal name in use at the time the birth was recorded. The use of other identifying documentation sans suffix, may also be considered the legal name in use at the time the ID was prepared.
The real confusion comes about when someone uses more than one variation frequently. Then it may become a hassle to properly identify the person using different forms of ID.
I personally have that problem every now and then. The military typically uses the name as shown on a birth certificate. However, I have never used my middle name nor suffix in any legal proceedings or on any legal documents, except those used in connection with the military. This has created an issue once when financing a home with a VA loan and again when applying for military retirement benefits. Other than that, no problems.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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n/a
Illinois
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 04:20:32 AM
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"1. For a long period of time, John Doe never provides a suffix, so any suffix that he might have used long ago, or which appears on his birth certificate, is no longer part of his name."
"...they aren't really part of the name, because they can be added, permanently dropped, or omitted from particular document as the person pleases."
No. The suffix IS STILL part of their legal name IF its on their birth certificate. Just because he chooses NOT to use it, 'regularly', doesn't make it "invalid".
That's why some lenders want us to verify other pieces of the BO's identity in addition to their state DL or ID. By checking out the BO's BC or SS card, the suffix or any other name should be listed on these dox. By checking the BC or SS, we can differentiate if they're using the suffix for "fun" or if its part of their legal name even though they don't use it often or close to never.
And personally, when a BO DOESN'T have their suffixes on their DL or state ID, I moan, as it can be very cumbersome especially since I have to ask to see their BC and SS card, which some folks just DO NOT like to show voluntarily or may not even have on their person, or even in the house!
But I've yet to have a closing fall through because of the lack of the suffix in the DL or ID. As long as the BC or SS card have that suffix on it, I'm comfortable with the BO's identity in that he isn't Jr trying to buy a house in Sr's name!
And I think your original post was funny, the part about:
..."if you give your boy the same name as his father, be sure to raise him right, or he will drop the "junior" and sell your house out from under you..."
Funny, but true!
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 6:15:41 PM
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Maple -
In Florida, a suffix is included in the birth certificate box under "Child's Name". It is therefore a part of the child's name, whereas the child's birth weight is not. Everything entered in the "Child's Name" portion of the birth certificate is a part of that child's legal name. When a child's full name can not fit in the space provided, hosptial administrators are instructed to enter only the first and last name in that box, make a notation that "additional names are recorded on reverse", and to insert the middle names in the margin on the back side of the birth record. Computer-issued certified copies would display the full name all together.
Everyone has the common law right to change their name by usage, provided there is no intent to defraud. Thus, those who name a child after themself may adopt the suffix "Sr.". However, because there would be no documentation to establish the addition of that suffix, the DMV would likely be hesitant - or may even refuse - to add "Sr." to a driver license simply because it is requested.
This "common law name change" sounds great in theory - but why don't you try going down to the DMV some time and tell them you want to change your name under common law... they'll laugh at you and tell you to go pay your fee and get a court order.
But with "Jr.", if the suffix is included on the birth certificate, it is a part of the legal name. Because the new driver license requirements say that the name on the driver license must match the name on the birth certificate (unless the change can be documented by marriage records, divorce records, or court order), the DMV can not simply drop the "Jr." upon request, just because John Smith Jr. gets tired of using the suffix - it is part of a legal name just as my middle name is a part of my legal name, and I can't tell the DMV to simply drop my middle name.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 11:37:21 AM
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I can see three scenarios that would be allowed by the law dictionary information that PWinFL posted.
1. For a long period of time, John Doe never provides a suffix, so any suffix that he might have used long ago, or which appears on his birth certificate, is no longer part of his name.
2. If someone asks John Doe to write his full name, with no other instructions, he always writes John Doe Jr., and has done this for a long time. Then it is his name, even if his birth certificate says John Doe III.
3. When someone asks John Doe for his full name with no further instructions, he always writes John Doe. When a form provides a space for a suffix, he fills in Jr., but he considers that a description, not part of his name. His name is John Doe. |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 11:09:02 AM
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Based on Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©2001:
Legal name
Definition - Noun
1 : a person's name that is usually the name given at birth and recorded on the birth certificate but that may be a different name that is used by a person consistently and independently or that has been declared the person's name by a court.
If a person seeks to change a name by judicial process, the court may not deny the change absent any indication of a fraudulent purpose. In some states, a woman's legal name is presumed to include her husband's last name.
2 : the designation chosen by a business entity (as a corporation) and reported to the state (as in the articles of incorporation)
The Florida courts have applied the definitions above in their judicial proceedings. Thus, if John Smith chooses to use "John Smith, Sr." as his name, and uses it consistently and independently, then the suffix in fact becomes part of the persons legal name. In summary, there are three vehicles that can be used to obtain a "legal name":
1. Birth name as recorded by the office of vital statistics (goes by varies names depending on the state) and printed on the birth certificate
2. Court ordered name
3. Used by a person consistently and independently
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 10:07:35 AM
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Robert, the birth certificate contains many things that are not put on the id, such as the weight, mother's name, etc. I don't think the mere presence of the suffix on the birth certificate means it has to be part of the name and can't be thought of as a description. It would take a Florida law or court decision saying it is part of the name to convince me that it is.
Also, I have never heard of any state that requires a court-ordered name change to change or drop the suffix. If John Doe Jr.'s dad dies, he can just drop the Jr. if he wants to. It would be interesting to see which DMVs would just drop the suffix on request, and which ones would require proof.
quote:
Originally posted by FlaNotary
IMO - "Jr." can be, and is in most cases, a legal part of the name. That is, in Florida at least, birth certificates do include suffixes such as Jr., II, III. When these items are on the birth certificate, they should be included as a part of the legal name and they should be included on the person's driver license.
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n/a
Illinois
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 08:55:35 AM
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On a lighter note, I think that parents should be banned from naming their children from dictators, colors, and cars! 
But seriously, I do think that parents should be wary and very adamant about making sure their childrens' BC are spelled correctly in the first place, so as to avoid any confusion later on for the child as an adult.
Il laws are pretty lax when it comes to specifics like that, and I've yet to have a problem with a closing where funding was held up due to the Jr or III being left off the ID...
Cheers... |
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 06:35:01 AM
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IMO - "Jr." can be, and is in most cases, a legal part of the name. That is, in Florida at least, birth certificates do include suffixes such as Jr., II, III. When these items are on the birth certificate, they should be included as a part of the legal name and they should be included on the person's driver license.
In the past it has been standard procedure in Florida for driver licenses to not include such suffixes, even if they are on the birth certificate. Now with the new REAL ID requirements, I believe that the name will be entered on the driver license exactly as stated on the birth certificate, suffixes and all.
When a driver license does not include a suffix, it poses a problem for notaries. If John Smith Jr.'s driver license says only "John Smith", what is prohibiting him from signing a document for his father and getting it notarized? The notary has no way of knowing whether or not the document being signed was intended to be sign by John Smith Jr. or John Smith Sr.
"Sr." is not usually included on legal documents because the suffix is only obtained if one names a child after themself. I would say that when John Smith Sr. dies, this does not mean that John Smith Jr. can drop the "Jr." from his name, because it is his legal name as shown on his birth certificate.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public for the State of Florida
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of Florida in the Bahamas
Commissioner of Deeds for the State of New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO Accredited Wedding Officiant
www.NotaryWeddings.com |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 07:30:33 AM
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I believe that when parents are choosing a name to go on their child's birth certificate, they should be given a notice something like this:
There is no definite law in most states about how one uses or changes generational identifiers, such as junior or III. Thus, if you give your boy the same name as his father, be sure to raise him right, or he will drop the "junior" and sell your house out from under you.
In the law, little weight is attached to middle names, so if you want to make sure bills and lawsuits don't go to the wrong family member, avoid giving the same first name as any other family member with the same last name.
The law also has the doctrine, idem sonans, which means that names that sound the same, although spelled differently, are considered to be the same name. So don't give your child a name that sounds the same as a close relative's name.
This proposal will never be adopted, but it sure would help us if it was. (Yes, I did think about putting this in the humor category.) |
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Proposed Birth Certificate Notice
