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zanger
16 Posts |
 Posted - 08/08/2009 : 09:39:27 AM
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I see you are in California, so you are in luck because you can register as a Legal Document Preparer in your county that would make you a recognized professional. You would also have to be bonded if you start getting involved with preparing forms. California has very weak UPL laws, but you would still need to be careful.
If you are not bonded and not registered as a legal document preparer give your customer a list of websites with free and for fee legal document companies. Have them select the form.
Here is a website of a notary document preparer in California.
http://www.iwritelegal.com/
Here is a site with info about Legal Document Preparers:
http://www.aldap.com/faq.htm#lda1 |
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zanger
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 1:27:11 PM
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If you do not know what you are doing, you can sell forms off your website with companies like this: rocketlawyer.com
The person buys the form off your website, they print it out, you get paid a commission from the company, then charge for the notary fee. This way the transaction is though a third party and you are safer from UPL. Let them fill out the form, and they print it. Do not give any advice, just say you will be happy to notarize the signature.
Altering a legal document for a fee is 10 times worse than giving legal advice, so whatever you do do not alter a document.
Notaries in Louisiana and Puerto Rico can draft and advise on contracts, incorporations, Wills, etc. Arizona licenses legal document preparers who are usually also notaries and they have some leeway in giving advice, but the advice is limited.
Until the 1940s most Wills in this country were drafted by notaries, drafting wills was actually the original purpose of the notary.
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Edited by - zanger on 08/06/2009 1:29:45 PM |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 12:17:52 PM
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I too choose not to go down that path. I do not provide any forms (other than notary certificates), even though the FL Bar has allowed it. In The Florida Bar v. Brumbaugh (1978); the case defined how the sellers of forms and "doityourself" legal kits could operate. This case liberalized the former laws by allowing nonlawyers to sell printed material purporting to explain legal practice and procedure to the public in general and to operate secretarial services and type forms for customers, if typists only copy the information given to them in writing by customers. The writing requirement was somewhat modified by rule 10-2.1(c) of the rules regulating The Florida Bar.
If asked for a POA or prepare a Will, or anything where a legal decision, instruction, interpretation or consultation is involved, I refer them to an attorney. (I work with a few in different practice areas, so I am able to refer them to a proper attorney. However, I always state that they should consult with an attorney. Period. Then follow it up with a statement that I have worked with Mr./Ms. Attorney who may be able to assist.)
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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Lisa T.
California
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:25:06 AM
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This is only my personal opinion but while it may not be UPL to provide several document choices to a customer, that's just not a bridge I'd choose to cross. I direct the customer to the office supply stores or online. Along the same lines, the rules have changed somewhat for R.E. agents in California where the agents must provide a minimum of three referrals if a buyer/seller requests a recommendation for a termite company, home warranty company, homeowners insurance company, painter, etc. The previous implications were that the R.E.firm was getting a kickback from the one company they recommended. Many agents were simply referring business to companies they knew did a great job for the homeowner and their only reward was the satisfaction that the homeowner was taken care of by an excellent company. However, some agents/firms were getting a kickback and some were even convincing the client that they had to use their recommended company since they were "approved" by the R.E. firm. One purchase signing I did, the buyer was complaining that the termite company bills was excessive and that he was forced to sign a document stating he would agree to that company doing the termite repair work.
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gjk-fl
Florida
151 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 09:53:21 AM
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Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the best scenario would be to let the person needing the POA notarized to come up with their own POA if they couldn't afford an attorney to provide this service.
gjk |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 08:22:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by PWinFL
In Florida, and possibly other states, the simple act of providing a legal document is considered practicing law. However, if you provide many different documents and the principal (e.g. client) selects a document from many different documents, that is not considered practicing law.
Even if you provide multiple documents, wouldn't it be easy for an attorney to indicate that, "...while Paul provides various forms available to the public, he does not provide the following ______ form that would better protect a citizen - shouldn't an attorney determine which of the forms is best for the particular use and situation of citizens?" Seems to me that even providing the selection of forms on ones own could place them in jeopardy of UPL. Would not an attorney plead that while many forms were available, that the one that was needed in a given situation was not present and a limited choice was presented and then sealed by the notary.
I do not do a lot of general notary work, so am curious more than anything else. Guess I'd rather that the customer simply asked me to notarize a document that they brought to me independently but am interested in a response. |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 8:40:40 PM
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In Florida, and possibly other states, the simple act of providing a legal document is considered practicing law. However, if you provide many different documents and the principal (e.g. client) selects a document from many different documents, that is not considered practicing law.
Even if the principal requested you to download a document and print it for them, as you suggest, though it may not be technically considered UPL, it may be perceived that you provided the instrument and thus may be construed to be UPL.
For the history of UPL and how the Florida Bar defines it, please read their Information Paper on the subject at http://tinyurl.com/mhs77s
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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gjk-fl
Florida
151 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 7:58:50 PM
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I'm confused. What is the difference in someone printing a POA document they found on the internet or me printing the document for them (say they don't have a printer) and fill in the names for them? Then taking it to them and notarizing the document you printed for them? I haven't done that, but was just curious, since I have been asked to notarize a POA for a friend who printed one off a website she found. So what is the difference?
gjk |
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n/a
California
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 6:41:07 PM
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PWinFL,
to answer you first statement, no I do not have legal background, Im pretty new to the notary business. I was just confused on how to answer her.
"A notary should not provide any legal forms to their clients as this may easily be construed as practicing law; i.e. providing legal advise by providing a particular legal document. Always refer anyone who asks if you have a "form" for any legal purposes, to seek the advice and counsel of an attorney."
I did not intend on providing her with legal documents/advice (as per my notary training advises me that this is a no-no). Again I was confused because I thought she was asking me to notarize a power of attorney, then she asked if I had one for Medical and Financial... I know now that you can buy power of attorney forms for whatever situation the client may need at multiple stores.
Glad I asked, or else I would have never known.
Thanks for the fast response guys! |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 07:49:56 AM
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And, regarding closing assignments, you cannot assume a POA is the right one. To illustrate, I was asked to do a nearby closing. The woman said she was married, but the husband was not feeling well and she had a POA for him and so she wanted to sign for him. I asked about the nature of the veterans illness (it was a VA loan) and she said he had a major head injury and he had “good days and bad days.” I called the title company and the first person said I should proceed with the POA signing and specified how they wished for her to sign for him. I asked if she or anyone had approved the POA on this one. She placed her supervisor on the line and she asked for the title and first paragraph of the POA document that the woman had. It was not the correct POA needed. So, the signing was rescheduled after a new POA was approved by the court (about five weeks later). The title company appreciated “the catch” regarding an incorrect POA.
Normally a company will let you know in advance if it is a POA signing, but not always. |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 04:36:21 AM
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Not being harsh, but it is obvious that you do not have a legal background, especially with Powers of Attorney. There are Powers of Attorney for healthcare, financial transactions, real estate, and general "everything". A notary should not provide any legal forms to their clients as this may easily be construed as practicing law; i.e. providing legal advise by providing a particular legal document. Always refer anyone who asks if you have a "form" for any legal purposes, to seek the advice and counsel of an attorney.
In your particular case, you should just suggest that your potential client seek legal assistance as Powers of Attorney are very powerful instruments with severe legal impact and ramifications. Don't fall victim to UPL.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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n/a
California
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 7:40:17 PM
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I had a customer call me today asking if I had a power of attorney form for medical and financial... I'm in California and I thought there was only one power of attorney certificate. Am I missing something, is there more than 1 kind?
Thanks,
Cara A.
California
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