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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2008 : 01:50:09 AM
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Love the picture, Cats - gee, you're almost like a real person now
With credit lines likely gone unless that bailout is passed, this becomes a topic all the more pertinent. I'd guess a lot of companies we do biz with use credit lines.
DEFINITELY agree - no physical address, no service! (Shoes & shirts optional, but MUST have an address!) Anyone who's hiding probably has a reason to.
My invoice has all the info - this is my 'subversive' message to the client that I keep complete records and am running a BUSINESS here, and have everything I need to follow up if I need to. Lender's contact, loan number, Settlement Agent, file number, signer's info, dates & times, shipping info, etc. (I use Quicken H & B.)
Statistics show that for every 30 days outstanding, the less likely you will be able to collect - never let invoices collect dust. A friendly phone callat 34 days, and my judgement begins with their response to that. I make it obvious with my friendly conversation that I have every intention on being paid:
"Ok, so you're saying that check will be going out this Friday, the 16th? Great, oh that's great Susie - and what is your last name & title, Susie? Super, well thanks SO much, I'll watch for that to arrive on Mon. or Tues." You can lay money on me calling Miss Susie on Tues, and I will then issue the deadline - in a nice way. "So sorry, you know how it is ... I'll need that check by Thurs or I'll have to file a collection with Dunn & Bradstreet."
Rarely have I had to really chase much. EFS & SE Equity - well, they were long-standing clients, no signs of trouble, just part of the fun of being self-employed.
*D&B Small Business collection service costs a flat $25 for a single letter, AND LISTS THE COLLECTION ACCT ON THE BUSINESS'S CREDIT REPORT. That'll leave a mark ...
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 11:37:00 AM
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"I have only not been paid by one company, Blue Ink, for $75.00 for an annuity signing that I ran and did on my lunch hour. I will claim it as a total loss on my taxes"
Quick note - your ability to take it as a total loss will depend on your bookkeeping method. The accrual method allows you to claim money when earned - if you end up not getting paid you can claim the loss the following year. In the cash method, income is claimed when received, so no loss can be taken - obviously since it's claimed when received, you're paid so no loss occurs. |
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gjk-fl
Florida
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 10:46:24 AM
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It is extremely important to obtain a physical address on a company that either doesn't put it on their signature line or uses a PO Box. If they don't share their physical address with you, Google them and then go to the link: contact us. If you still don't get their address, do a reverse phone number look up. I have an Excel sheet where I indicate the borrower's name, the signing company's info, the title company's info and even the lender's info, my invoice #, when I faxed the invoice, the fee, the mode of return and the return tracking number. When I'm paid I enter that too along with the date and the check number. That way I can refer back to it if I work for them again and know when to expect payment. Then I enter any notes in a section too, if I have to prod them for payment. I also create a file in my email and file every email, even the ones I send them, in the file. I keep all emails from them until I am paid and the check clears. I have only not been paid by one company, Blue Ink, for $75.00 for an annuity signing that I ran and did on my lunch hour. I will claim it as a total loss on my taxes. I also keep a paper file for the tax man.
gjk |
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 08:34:16 AM
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It's a no-brainer after the fact, but what do you see before they establish a bad name and their slow-pay record gets broadcasted all over the web?
Here are a few things that have started to send up red flags for me:
The phone call comes through from a "private" number.
There is no physical address for the business on their confirmation.
There are misspellings on the order or their agent agreement.
They have a clause in the notary agreement that says you may not contact the lender directly about payment of notary fees.
They ask for 1 statement per month instead of individual invoices.
They want the statement mailed instead of faxed or emailed or have other little "requirements" that enable them to set up excuses for late payment. The last notary agreement I read even said that "No fees will be paid for any signing not invoiced within 90 days".
And, unfortunately, if the signing service is located in California, the bells and whistles start going off for me. Sad to say, because I'm sure there are many reputable ones located there.
Of course, any one of these things does not necessarily mean a company is bad.
Are there any other little signs you can think of that send up red flags for you?
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 01:33:56 AM
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Yep, as Linda said: "I think I see the common denominator - if you read the boards you will too..."
*read ALL the boards, to gain the broadest base of information avail. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 08:10:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cats0527
I don't really see a common denominator. Three of them were new, 1 time business for me --Notary Connection, Pinnacle Real Estate,and The Closing Company. All sounded professional on the phone and sent professional looking confirmations.
Three others I have been doing business with on a regular basis for 2 or 3 years --Guarantee Trust and Title, Lenders First Choice, and LIA Signing.
The other 2 really aren't out of business -YET- but should be. Chances are slim to none of getting any money from the well known and hated SOX and Loan Signers, Inc. that have owed me for about 2 years.
I think I see the common denominator - if you read the boards you will too...
Pinnacle Real Estate, LIA Signings, SOX, Loan Signers, Inc (LSI)- read the posts from various signing agents - there's a pattern of slow pay for most of them and no-pay in some instances....LFC had issues on and off as did TCC, and I've read about Notary Connection before but don't recall where or if it was good or bad.
Did you check the boards before or immediately after you took the assignments? If you did, did you heed the warnings and turn the signings back based on negative feedback? Again, heed the words of those who went before - you may end up turning down work BUT where do you win if you take the job then don't get paid? Easy answer - you don't...
Market to those who pay...decline those who don't - it's painful at first but pays off in spades in the end...
BTW, two points I forgot - Deb's post about dreaming, I believe, was directed to me, not you Cats, so please don't take her the wrong way...and second, your fees sound pretty much in line with what most of us charge - $125-$150 based on location...more if farther or more involved...MHO
Good Luck!!
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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Edited by - LindaH on 09/28/2008 10:31:41 AM |
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 06:30:06 AM
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I don't really see a common denominator. Three of them were new, 1 time business for me --Notary Connection, Pinnacle Real Estate,and The Closing Company. All sounded professional on the phone and sent professional looking confirmations.
Three others I have been doing business with on a regular basis for 2 or 3 years --Guarantee Trust and Title, Lenders First Choice, and LIA Signing.
The other 2 really aren't out of business -YET- but should be. Chances are slim to none of getting any money from the well known and hated SOX and Loan Signers, Inc. that have owed me for about 2 years.
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 03:48:24 AM
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Oops, forgot about SE Equity - folded up without warning owing me $150 ...I gave them a good chase but wasn't successful. So ... that makes 2 losses, in 3 1/2 years.
Cats - look at the 8 losses you've had this year, and see if you can find the common denominators among them.
Linda's one of the people I listen attentively to, also!
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 09:07:43 AM
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The Notary forums have been the key for me in not having payment problems....in the little over 2 years I've been doing this, I've had one company go out on me...I've eaten $130.00 for a company that closed their doors right after I did the signing - I'm still undecided if I want to pursue it any further - have to weigh the benefits vs. time/cost spent...ironic thing is the borrower is involved with prepaid legal!!!
I've read the forums extensively and still do - I keep notes and a list of companies based on reports by people who have had problems with them and avoid those companies at all costs (keep it in red ink in a red-bound address book..LOL). Even in the days when I first started out I turned down SOX, Signatures Plus and the like - I listened to those who went before me. Oh, sure, I've had some I've had to chase but, in the end, I've been paid by all but that one, and the longest, I believe, was CQ at 70-something days...I go by the old saying "burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me"...I'll give a company a chance if they don't have a negative track record, but if they burn me, never again - and so far I've been lucky. I also know my limits and know I DON'T know it all and those who've been in this business longer than I should heeded. And boy do I listen!! As should everyone else, instead of feeling insulted that there IS someone out there who knows better.
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 09:05:42 AM
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I don't feel I'm working too cheap, but I'd like your opinion.
I live in a community of 60,000 in Wisconsin and have been in the business for 3 years. I am certified and background screened by the NNA. I charge $65.00 for each signing as a starting point and add $25.00 for e-doc printing and approx. $30.00 per hour for travel. So for a job that is 30 minutes away, I would add $30.00 (for travel to and from the job). I frequently travel 30 to 60 minutes each way so my average fee is in the $125.00 to $150.00 range.
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 08:47:04 AM
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Great conversation, Cats, and I sure WISH I understood what exactly it is that keeps me from having payment problems, I'd happily pass it along. I do not know, BUT I have my suspicions - by reading ALL the boards (gathers more info from diverse sources)and looking for common denominators, it appears to my own eyes that those without issues share these things:
1. They don't work 'cheap'. That probably stops a lot of it right there, for a variety of reasons. For one, the type of client 'cheap' attracts, as well as the business savvy a client might assume of those who work cheap.
2. They're highly visible (those who also say they don't have problems), have visible names, post all over the boards. This might also dissuade 'bad' clients.
3. They follow business protocols - professional invoices, organized record keeping, etc.
So far this year, I ate one closing - done for EFS, the DAY they shut their doors. I submitted Seneca One to Dunn & Bradstreet for collections immediately after 30 days - because they tried to play games, and apparently thought that would work with me. It did not, and I was paid immed. after the collection submission.
After a few years of refusing less-than-professional fees, the low-ballers don't even call me anymore. I keep my ears to the ground, give everyone a fair shake, accept signings ASSUMING I will be paid, accept 30-45 day pay schedules as part of business-to-business practices, AND I also accept that ALL businesses face non-payment risks as part of the package.
If I never heard of a new client - I assume they are my next new best client, and treat them that way. If they were in financial distress, I'd either have heard of it already - or (like EFS) it will just be 'my turn', and I accept that. |
Edited by - Renee on 09/27/2008 08:48:20 AM |
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 07:10:13 AM
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Thank you, Renee, for that very detailed and informative response. You make some excellent points, especially in regard to consumer direct protocol. I really would not want to see that happen. In fact, I think most everything is working pretty well as is, except for the relatively few non-paying and slow-paying companies that are a blight on the industry.
I appreciate this website and forum for providing a place for us to network and alert each other of companies to avoid. I know now that I could have avoided some of my non-payment problems if I had taken a little time to check them out. But it also occurs to me that some of these companies that have gone out of business are just setting up under new names. How can we protect ourselves against that?
I believe I run a professional and organized business too and I am in awe of your statement that you do not have any payment problems. Do you ever accept jobs from companies that you then check out and discover to be slow-paying or do you cancel the job?
Before I complete a job for a company with a bad reputation, I am considering sending an email telling them that due to negative comments about them, I will require being listed on the HUD. Do you ever do that? If the job cancels, so be it. I don't get paid, but neither does anyone else. This happening is much more rare than the non-payment and out-of-business problems I have had this year.
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 05:32:35 AM
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First, to Cats – we are not the only service providers at risk for non-payment. The abstractors are suffering hugely and have been for a long time – the only difference between their industry and ours is generally, their outstanding accounts run in the thousands. Suffice to say, we’re not isolated – and neither are they.
Next – I think in order for borrowers to pay us directly at the time of signing, they would need or should be granted the choice of selecting us. That’s definitely a change that I can see a lot of benefit in – but it would need a lot of strategic changes. We’d need to make a huge effort towards ‘consumer-facing’ education & marketing. It might also present some logistical challenges to RESPA, since no matter how you spin it, our services are a part of the closing process – but there are precedents in place already, as some banks do practice this method (docs to borrower with instructions to find a notary).
This ‘consumer direct’ protocol could also become a glaring target for the regulators, though. Since the majority of mortgage fraud involves collusion – leaving the selection of signing agents (who are unregulated) up to the unregulated consumer leaves the gate wide open. It allows the entities that ARE regulated to put themselves at arm’s length from the signing (& distance themselves from any collusion). The thing that ‘good people’ often don’t easily see is the ease at which ‘not good people’ can be enabled to do things that are not good. So, if I think about how the fraud that goes on, and is STILL going on, and what this could do to enable it further …I just shudder.
Being NAMED on the Hud and paid at disbursement is great, but requires that you also give up being paid (along with everyone else) if the loan does not fund. This also throws a cog into accounting, when we’re hired by a third party (SS’s).
While I’d love to see loan signing agents regulated & licensed as “Signing Agents” and not just a spin-off trade – meaning I’d like to see us taken OUT and set apart from being notary publics – I don’t really see any need for any new laws regarding payment for services contracted & rendered. All the laws my business needs to garner payment from those who contract my services already exist. Even today, in these unpredictable times, I do NOT have payment problems and I am still just amazed by that. I am NOT ‘lucky’, I have no special powers other than running a professional & organized business. I just don’t get it.
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 4:01:02 PM
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Ok, so maybe I'm dreaming. But seriously, what would be the down side of just paying the notary at the same time the rest of the disbursements are made? The signing company still gets paid and doesn't lose anything. In fact, it would even be of benefit to them as it would save them the time and effort of having to keep us on their books and then cut checks to us. Save on office supplies, postage and bookkeepers. Everyone gets paid when they should and everything is nice and neat. No one has to fax invoices or make phone calls about overdue payments. I really don't see who would be hurt, except maybe lawyers and collection agencies that wouldn't get business from us any more. If signing companies are against it, that could only mean they don't plan to pay us or want to use our money to run their business in an unscrupulous way.
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lildeb1951
Arizona
32 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 2:54:20 PM
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| It doesn't cost anything to dream so keep dreaming. Maybe it'll happen some day. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 2:02:27 PM
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I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again and keep saying it - I, personally, would like to be paid at the table by the borrowers for the work I've done - if they say "I'm not signing" then they give me a check for half my fee; if they sign, when we're all done they pay my full fee, non-refundable if they rescind...that eliminates the song and dance routine we go through with a lot of the companies we deal with.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?? |
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cats0527
Wisconsin
6 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 1:11:24 PM
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It's hard to understand how every single other fee connected with a loan must be paid when the loan disburses, yet notaries must wait 30 to 90 days or more to get paid, IF EVER!
In the last year, 8 businesses I have done loan signing jobs for have gone out of business without paying me. I am owed and I'm sure will never receive payment for these signings and am out $2035.00 with very little recourse.
Why can't we all band together and demand that our portion of the fee be paid directly to us at the time of settlement with the balance paid to the signing company that hired us?
Any other ideas out there?
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