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 Fla docs drive NY notary nuts - again !
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edelske

New York
813 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2017 :  2:26:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
SOS,
Nope, not a distress call - Short for Same Old ......
.
This time an attorney written POA, which weirdly had in the notary section "Before me appeared Mickey Mouse the rightful heir to the Daffy Duck estate".
.
With apologies to Peter, Paul and Mary:

When Will They Ever Learn ??
.


Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com
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LindaH

Florida
1753 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2017 :  06:49:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by edelske

History Lesson!!
.
"Almost" ten years have passed. We are all older. But, as to the topic and discussion: Nothing Has Changed.
.
There is a lesson here, but I don't know what it is.......


Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com



Still, Ken? What happened now? :)


Linda
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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edelske

New York
813 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2017 :  03:26:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
History Lesson!!
.
"Almost" ten years have passed. We are all older. But, as to the topic and discussion: Nothing Has Changed.
.
There is a lesson here, but I don't know what it is.......


Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com
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LindaH

Florida
1753 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  4:28:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I suppose this doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but I throw in my 2 cents. What the? "

Bobbi - your posts ALWAYS add something to the discussion....when I see you've posted I know I'm about to read something that's straightforward, to the point, factual and informative. In other words, I get taken to school with every post you make!!!...<G>

Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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jbelmont

California
2990 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  4:00:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbelmont's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have seen this type of wording too that includes the words, "single man". Although the notary would probably not be held liable for notarizing with such wording on a certificate, its not the notary's job or perhaps even their right to certify a person's capacity, or marriage status.

So, what are the ways around it? Attaching a loose acknowledgment is probably the safest solution in terms of liability. It fits the legal requirements of the recorder without putting the notary at risk.

On the other hand, what if they signer were willing to sign an "affidavit of single manliness". I solemnly swear that I am a single man, so help me God!!! That affidavit would constitute one form of possibly acceptable proof that the person is single. When people travel to Mexico, they used to bring an affidavit of citizenship which constituted proof. This is a similar idea.
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BobbiCT

Connecticut
135 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  12:01:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit BobbiCT's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I suppose this doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but I throw in my 2 cents. What the? I work with Florida residential and commercial real estate attorneys on a regular basis, also with their staff notaries and paralegals. Not wishing to speak ill of an attorney and circumstances I am not familiar with ...

1. "because it said at the bottom of the page that he prepared the document." For a Florida real estate deed, the name & address of the attorney preparing the document is placed in the upper left corner of the first page, beginning with "Prepared by" and often containing "without examination of title" where the attorney has not done a full title exam. This is so the Florida Bar and others can quickly verify if the attorney who prepared the document is admitted to practice law in FL ... if not and if caught, UPL and here they come after you!

"...by Charles Smith, a single man, unmarried, widower of Sally Smith" within the notarization block. No way! I am not a Florida notary, but I have NEVER seen this as a requirement in a notarization block. It isn't necessary there. For multiple reasons under Florida real property, estate and conveyance tax laws, it is often necessary in the first paragraph of the deed describing the grantor/releasor, but the notarization block doesn't need it.

Also, a Florida notarization block and identification requirements are very specific, which "we" (others and me) routinely modify to show we notaries met CT notarization requirements -line thru, initial and edits. Ink color not a problem. "We" use dark blue ink on Florida documents all the time. Never had an attorney or a recorder bounce on e back in 15 years.

"Sworn to and subscribed ..." That's not a standard Florida acknowledgment block for a deed. Of course, I've seen attempts to "fix" title held by two married individuals after one has died using the "widower of technique" deed - but those are other humorous profitable stories that I am sure Linda is familiar with, too.

Sounds like a secretary pulled an old free form off the internet and a Florida real estate attorney didn't review it closely.

You did what you were instructed. You followed NY notarization law. You TRIED; you did the professional thing and called for further instructions. Not your problem if they get it wrong.

Edited by - BobbiCT on 03/30/2008 12:55:22 PM
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edelske

New York
813 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  08:23:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Linda,
I do blame him without speaking to him because it said at the bottom of the page that he prepared the document. If not personally, it was generated from his office - to me same thing. Otherwise I am asked to accept "someone or the computer" did it and you will just have to work with what you have. The "top dog" is always responsible IMHO.

Yes to two witnesses - BUT even though I "know" it's a requirement - if the document did not have a preprinted witness area - they would not get witness signatures. I fill out the forms AS presented - if there is an error in preperation - and I can't reach anyone to ask about it - I just fill in the form legally; adding nothing based on "my judgement". May sound robotic but seems safer than guessing. We are NOTARIES not attorneys, we check the ID and notarize the signature - per my County Clerk ----> "Nothing More!".

She did not state the part about "making it right" - my wording was a bit vague - I would not have accepted the attorneys "it's OK" but would have asked for a replacement document - if I had reached him.

Ken
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LindaH

Florida
1753 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  07:54:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ken..since you never got to speak with the attorney IMO I wouldn't blame him...sounds to me like you got bad advice from the secretary/paralegal. And this bothers me...you stated she said " even if I reached him - there was nothing he could say that would "make it right". " and she knows this how?? JMHO

One question - did you get two witnesses on the deed? That, I DO know, is required on any deed of conveyance for FL property...



Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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edelske

New York
813 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  06:30:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank you Renee,

Now I understand the root of the problem. Software! "The computer did it" - an often given "explaination" for things so foolish that a human could not possibly have done it.

Software is something that I do know! I worked for a brokerage house (the one with the pet bull) for 25 years. I was the Network Admin, LAN manager, chief troubull shooter - all in one. I got lots of education and training in software. Microsoft Cert Sys Engineer, Novell, Cisco, Banyan, etc. My little network "New York Trading Operations" had several thousand workstations and a few hundred servers, routers, firewalls, etc.

Of all the trueisms in my software / hardware experience spanning the last quarter century one seems to be most appropriate for this august forum: GIGO --> Garbage In Garbage Out. Just like the human body.

So I have just learned from your most informative post that the tech weenie did not bother to strip the vesting and other "baggage" from the individuals name when forming the notary section. THAT explains it - yup - you got a bulls eye on root of the problem for sure.

You did not beat me over the head on my tactic of just ignoring the notarization on the QCD completly - and replacing it with a standard ack - so that approach MUST be right!

Relief, joy, serenity are mine, I did the right thing! Btw: if the document uses the word "affidavit" - but does not have a notary section - I just assume the form designer does not know how to spell "statement". Loose acks are used by me for replacing invalid acks - not added by guesswork.

If us notaries really learn and stick to our governing laws, the ones in our home state, the ones we swore to uphold when we received our commissions - the priority of that "tech weenie" to fix the problem will increase.


Ken
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Renee

Michigan
549 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  02:38:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit Renee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ken, you are a riot!

It's not just you, not just NY vs. FL, it's everywhere. There's such a negligence from all the various parties in preparing notarial certs - this seems to be the bottom rung on the ladder of Important Things To Clean Up inside the industry.

I understand that much of the problem has to do with the software used to populate fields in mortgage documents - fixing or editing them is not always an easy task. Still - explanations are NOT excuses!

I worked with several of the popular softwares used - for a huge company with maybe 20 software geeks. When the software came out, it took whatever was put into the mtg vesting line and used that to populate the mtg signature line AND the notarial cert. They did that ON PURPOSE, so all 3 lines would match.

Well, as your case in point illustrates - that's NOT CORRECT. Most vesting lines include (according to state) marital status, often include how title interest is held ("full rights of survivorship" or "as tenants in common", etc) - and all that verbiage would transfer to both the signature lines and notarial certs.

First I spoke with the software people, then they went to the legal dept, who in turn went to the Really Big People, who went BACK to the software designer ... all this went on for years, and I never did see it fixed.

Ultimately what I was continually told was "That's WHY we get CPL's and leave it to the title agent to make sure it gets executed & recorded properly."

Another change I managed to roll with for years - the requirement to have a bunch of Affidavits notarized was removed, and the consequent change to the documents was simply to delete the notarial cert. Probably about half of them continued to come back notarized - meaning that closers would see the title "Blah Blah Affidavit", minus ANY further indication of any notarization being requested, and they would determine on their own to notarize. (I can not recall a single time anyone CALLED me to ask whether or not they should, or what type of notarization to use). We're talking about 10-20 THOUSAND loans. That's why when I left, I knew I'd find a place out here for a decently experienced 'closer'
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edelske

New York
813 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2008 :  8:31:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't get me wrong - I like Florida, nice people, Disney, Seaworld, Busch Gardens - it's a great place to go. But - the rules (blue ink) and the documents (more on that in a bit) are driving this New York notary to take massive amounts of aspirin.

It was supposed to be a simple notary job. The people sounded nice. They were taking a train from Baltimore to Manhattan to an eldery relative to be present for him signing a Quit Claim Deed. They confirmed with me several times, verified that the elderly gentelman had both a valid drivers license and current passport. It should have been so simple.......

But - the "Florida syndrome" struck me again. The notary section had (with of course my changing the name for posting):

"Sworn to and subscribed before me by Charles Smith, a single man, unmarried, widower of Sally Smith."

So many problems for such a small sentence!

First: "a single man" - how can I state that - he cant prove to me he is single - there is NO Way for anyone to prove their marital status.

Second: "unmarried" - kinda the same as the first.

Finally: "widower of Sally Smith" - how can I possibly attest to that? There was no additional documentation of any kind other than his ID - plenty of relatives to say it was true - but nothing else.

EVEN IF THERE WAS both a marriage license, and a death cert - I am only allowed to notarize HIS NAME - nothing else.

The document was prepared by an attorney in Florida - whos secretary, during several calls kept telling me he was "in conference" - even if I reached him - there was nothing he could say that would "make it right".

In the end the man signed the Quit Claim Deed - and I attached a standard notarization - the most I could do. The secretary of the law firm repeatedly told me that the wording was necessary for the deed to record under Florida law - but she eventually agreeded to my using a standard NY "loose ack" attached to the Deed.

Unlike my blue ink follies - this time I know I am "legit" - but feel unhappy that - due to the differences in laws - it might not file.

On the other hand, it's unfair of the attorney drafting the document to think that I could, using my seal, add credibility to such a statement. There is the possibility that the lady is quite alive - and the meeting before me an elaborate act - part of a scam. In the body of the document the affiant makes the same statement - one that I cannot work with in the "notary section".

This is becoming a more common event - the notary section being used to sanctify facts and status - way beyond the ID of the affiant. I choose to not strike out the offending section, but rather just attach a loose ack and leave that part entirly blank.

I don't have any other "solution" - it takes divine intervention (which unfortunately I really don't deserve) to work with Fla docs.


Ken
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