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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2008 : 6:56:04 PM
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Pen of choice:
Pilot Precise V5 RT (retractable "click top")
Sign twice = charge double (IMHO) probably not what the Title/SS/LO's want .....
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
Edited by - edelske on 07/16/2008 6:56:40 PM |
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 12:45:35 PM
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California accepts black or blue, I carry both but use blue unless instructed specifically to use black...
To avoid that [same pen] issue, I insist that the signer utilize the pens I provide and only use one kind of pen...this also lends itself to consistency...makes it easily recognizable later as a signing I probably did (or didn't) sign. Once in a while you get the odd signer who wishes to use their own "special" pen...I don't argue but usually make a note of it.
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
Now Providing "Service of Process" in Orange County, CA |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 10:22:08 AM
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LOL... Then they'll start looking for tiny differences between the 2 sigs.
I once had some co. complain because the 2 B's didn't sign in exactly the same color ink. |
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 08:21:33 AM
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Maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but, why not have the signer sign twice? Once in black and once in blue...then everyone is happy no?
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net
Now Providing "Service of Process" in Orange County, CA |
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 6:42:34 PM
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Just a thought here...why not have the signer sign the document twice?...once in blue and once in black, then everyone gets what they want...
Is this too off-base a solution?
"A Quick Note"
www.aquicknote.net |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2008 : 6:27:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by NCLisa
The future is that all original and recordable legal documents and notarizations will be in blue ink.
There are many reasons for this: gel pens don't bleed through the paper, and you don't press so hard, so you may not find an imprint on the back of the page; copiers are so good that is almost impossible to tell the original from the copy if all is done in black ink.
I've started to see original documents signed and notarized in black ink kicked back from the register of deeds office because they can't tell that the document is an original. I know many larger law firms that have thrown the black pens away.
Those good copiers copy blue just as good as black. It's easy to tell an original: just dampen a finger and rub the ink, toner dont come off. Also, it's good practice to emboss everything then there is no doubt as to what is original. But, alas, NY State law still mandates black ink for me.....
Ken |
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NCLisa
North Carolina
14 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2008 : 6:00:24 PM
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The future is that all original and recordable legal documents and notarizations will be in blue ink.
There are many reasons for this: gel pens don't bleed through the paper, and you don't press so hard, so you may not find an imprint on the back of the page; copiers are so good that is almost impossible to tell the original from the copy if all is done in black ink.
I've started to see original documents signed and notarized in black ink kicked back from the register of deeds office because they can't tell that the document is an original. I know many larger law firms that have thrown the black pens away. |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 4:16:44 PM
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It seems that your stamp must be in black, but your signature color is not specified. One thing that is a bit risky is to sign twice. Once in black, and once in blue. Notarizing the document twice and attaching two certificates, one with black signature, and one with blue is another weird idea.
If it were me, it seems clear that it is fine for a NY notary to sign in black without consequences so long as the stamp uses black ink. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 3:55:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
OMG, Ken, if their reply's not enough to make you want to bang your head against the wall, eh?! 
So ... I guess the NEXT question is: Who trumps whom?
With the assumption you are asking about the game of "Bridge";
I'm always the dummy!
Ken |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 07:43:53 AM
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OMG, Ken, if their reply's not enough to make you want to bang your head against the wall, eh?!
So ... I guess the NEXT question is: Who trumps whom? |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 06:56:52 AM
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Reply from question asked on Web page:
We have forwarded your email to our Enforcement Unit for reply. They replied that the statute appears to be silent on signature color.
Our Legal interpretation has always extended the statute to include the signature color to be black.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth A Edelstein [mailto:kene@pobox.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 8:28 AM
To: dos.sm.InetLegl
Subject: Notary Signature in Black ink question
"...print, typewrite, or stamp beneath his signature in black ink, his name, the words "Notary Public State of New York,..."
Does the above require the notary to sign their name in black ink - or is the black ink requirement just for the stamp beneath the signature? Can the notary sign using blue ink?
Ken |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2008 : 05:37:01 AM
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Renee,
I am hesitant to call the County recorder for two reasons. First, I probably would have to mention the Title Co. wanting me to use blue ink, then would be in a position of "representing them" as a pseudo (read: illegal) lawyer. That is something they will have to do for themselves.
Second, the problem is not isolated to Pinellas county - as I have frequently had the request for me to sign in blue ink. Most often, at the time of the request; neither the county nor state is known by the signing company.... (you know just how little info they have).
Thus, my new policy is to "Just say NO" - to using blue ink for my signature, etc. So here I am - posting to my peers - and in a very widespread and respected forum - showing my dirty laundry and fessing up to doing the wrong thing.
Anybody want to buy some slightly used blue pens?
ken
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 11:55:13 PM
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I'm glad I didn't be my OWN money - somebody please pay Ken!
Excellent action on that though, Ken. No dinking around - and it sure does create a bit of a headache. Any chance in he77 the info about the Pinellas County recorder is wrong? I did try and look on-line this morning and couldn't find anything listing their recording requirements. Might just be a single FL County Recorder with a wild hair ... um ... a wild hare in her arms?
Were it me, I'd probably call them (Pinellas recorder), might be worth it if you can somehow save the client relationship AND do your certs the legal way. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 10:25:22 PM
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I have just spoken with Mr. Jack Bilello, Legal Counsel's Office of the New York Department of State. He has been there for over 10 years. His official interpretation of the relevant section of law is:
1. The New York State notary must sign their official name using black ink only.
2. If a stamp (under the notary signature) is used it must also be in black ink.
3. If the "Notary Public State of New York,” the name of the county in which he is qualified, and the date upon which his commission expires is not stamped in black ink it must be handwritten, by the notary, using only black ink.
He added that there are no exceptions.
I mentioned Pinellas Florida's requirement for blue ink. He replied that a notarization first must be valid at point of origin. His advice to me was to use black ink only in all cases, as notaries have been reprimanded by his office for not following this regulation.
Ken |
Edited by - edelske on 03/05/2008 10:41:05 PM |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 3:35:27 PM
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Email question submitted to NY DOS / Legal Counsel's office:
"...print, typewrite, or stamp beneath his signature in black ink, his name, the words "Notary Public State of New York,..."
Does the above refer to the notary's signature being required to be in black ink, or to the stamp under the notary signature being required to be in black ink. Can a NYS notary sign in blue ink?
submitted at: http://www.dos.state.ny.us/about/contact.asp
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Edited by - edelske on 03/05/2008 3:41:44 PM |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 12:17:29 PM
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Ken,
Have you put this question to your NY DOS? When you read the statute it says:
"...print, typewrite, or stamp beneath his signature in black ink, his name, the words "Notary Public State of New York,..."
This is the same as the MI statute, but written a little differently, and I strongly suspect (as a non-atty and purely for our discussion) that NY intends the same outcome as MI and the other states w/such ink color preferences - that it applies only to your PRINTED, TYPED or STAMPED name and "Notary Public State of NY", and is not applicable to your signature.
Rather than getting into a tug o' war with a client, and even asking our opinions, I'd suggest giving the DOS a call and asking them how to practically apply their statute.
I'll bet someone else's money that the whole thing is moot, and your signature in blue IS compliant w/ NY laws. DO let us know. |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:43:17 AM
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Finally a really interesting post. Executing a null and void notarization by NY standards seems like its okay so long as there are no consequences. You are not doing something illegal according to New York notary law by signing in blue.
Therefor, the only law that has consequence is the law of the state that records the documents, namely, Florida.
Therefor, the first question you should ask when taking an assignment that requires you to use blue ink is, "where will it be recorded". If the answer is Florida, then you should use blue ink. |
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AZSigner
Arizona
93 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:22:44 AM
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Ken,
Sorry, to answer your question directly: If AZ had a "black ink only" notarization law and the property in question were in an out-of-state county with a "blue ink only" law/policy, I would just go ahead and sign my name in blue ink to make the local county recorder happy so the transaction would go through without being rejected.
Yes, this would technically be against the law of my home state, but I honestly don't think there would be a high risk of me being hauled into court over my signature being signed in the wrong-colored ink. Of course it COULD happen, but I guess what I'm saying is that I personally would be comfortable assuming the risk of signing in a different-colored ink.
Fortunately for me, Arizona has no such law and neither do any of its county recorders, so I guess I really could sign with a glitter pen if I wanted to...
-Mike |
Edited by - AZSigner on 03/05/2008 06:23:24 AM |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 05:23:48 AM
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I'm sorry - I must have misunderstood your post - I thought you meant in NY your entire cert must be in black ink - I think what they were saying is Pinellas County wants the cert signed in blue ink (in order to differentiate an original from a photocopy)...I've done a lot of signings on Florida properties - many times my name is pre-printed under the signature line and it's in black - never had one kicked back because of it. I'd be surprised if the clerk kicked it back because of how your name is UNDER the line.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 04:36:41 AM
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Linda,
beneath his signature in black ink
is the part I am referring to, I dont think my post mentioned anything about the entire cert? |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 04:30:49 AM
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Ken...where does it says the entire cert must be in black...I went and looked and all I found was this:
"A notary public must sign the name under which he was appointed and no other. In addition to his signature and venue, the notary public shall print, typewrite or stamp beneath his signature in black ink, his name, the words “Notary Public State of New York,” the name of the county in which he is qualified, and the date upon which his commission expires "
I will say, too, that each FL county is unique - they have their little quirks and we need to abide by them...e.g.: FL law says no witnesses required on mortgages (only on deeds of conveyance) = one county here requires witnesses...had a return trip because of that...
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 03:44:00 AM
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I accept the routine signing assignment - purely routine. It's a refi with edoc local to me, fee is right and doc on time. BUT, I notice a special instruction "Everything must be done in BLUE ink". However, as New York State law requires notary to only use black ink - I call the Title Co. "You must use Blue Ink" they tell me. I tell them that the notarization would not be compliant with NY state law. They tell me that the Pinellas County Clerk (Florida) will not record the Mortgage if the notary uses black ink. What to do? Well, at first I "stood my ground" and refused to use blue ink - a notarization that starts out void is pointless. However, this occured several times and the discussion became almost routine! It also makes no sense to do a notarization that will not record on a mortgage. Truly no way to win.
I "relented", did not like it; but "came around" to the Title Co's way of thinking. Not because I wanted the fee - I get lots of work - but because the concept of notarization is to provide a service, to facilitate the transaction. Refusing the job does not facilitate, nor does my signing in black ink - only to be rejected in Pinellas. The only way for the Mortgage to record is for me to acknowledge the fact that the recording juristriction's needs take priority over the New York law. Thus I am "stuck" doing a technically flawed - but fully functional notarization. If someone has a better idea (Carmen?) I sure would appreciate them posting it here.
Ken in New York City |
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