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crtowles
California
553 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2008 : 3:25:15 PM
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It is not up to us to make sure that the borrower understands the documents...even if you ask them and they say they understand..how do we really know for sure that they understand. According to the California SOS. that is NOT our job. Our job is to verify identity and signature only. Whether they understand or not is not up to us. If they don't understand it they should not be signing it. This came straight form the CA SOS. Being a signing agent is where the problem comes in....the folks that are hiring us are trying to cover their rear ends so they impose these little things for us to commit to (in writing no less) there is no way I would sign this. IT IS NOT MY JOB!!!! It is the lender/title.and or loan officer's jobs to make sure that their clients understands the documents...PERIOD!
Carmen
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 1:01:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jbelmont
Its a prudent idea that the notary makes sure that the signer understands all documents, otherwise, you are putting yourself at risk of being a guest in court later on if someone is a victem of fraud. The risky cases are notarizing elderly people's signatures in hospitals or those who are not completely "with it". Powers of attorney and deeds affecting real property are the most critical.
"Do you acknowledge that these are your signatures, that you understood and willfully signed these documents and that the statements are true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief"?
That is the "Notary Oath" that I give - If they say "Yes" the papers are submitted - a "No" sends them to the shredder. The only way I "make sure the signer understands" is to ask them if they did as part of the Notary Oath - to burrow deeper on the "understanding the docs" issue is "not my job". Nor do I have the technical skills to determine if their understanding is correct. I certainly wont go over a typical 18 page mortgage to be sure the affiant understands each clause - (which I certainly don't!) I dont pass judgement on them - I mearly ask them if they did understand. At some point the signers of these documents (with the condition that they appear in "sound mind") have to take responsibility for their signatures. Of course in the case of the mentally unable, notarization is out; and the process of "court appointed guardian", etc., takes over.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2008 : 03:07:28 AM
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Cybor - check your PA statutes, and it'll explain it. The certification by the notary, of a statement of fact BY the notary IS a notarial act, just so that's clear.
Different than notarizing for your self - but reading your statutes will explain it all very clearly, and that is really the source to go to for these type of questions. 
In other words - please don't take my word on this w/out going back and refreshing yourself with the actual statutes.
LEE - and yes, I sure agree with you, there's no WAY to state an opinion (do they understand?) as a fact (yes/no), even if I were able to legally do that (which I can't). The BORROWER can, though - and I revise the doc so THEY can attest to understanding, and they can sign - and I simply notarize their signature. |
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cybor462
Pennsylvania
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 1:15:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
On PAN's form, you are not "notarizing your own signature" - your signature is ONLY on the form as part of your notarial certificate. PA allows notaries to provide certificates to either certify a true copy of a document, OR to certify a true STATEMENT. In the instance of this particular ID Verification form, there is a 'statement of fact' and by your notarial signature, you are attesting to that being a TRUE statement of fact.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. On one hand I thought it was ok as long as my name was not in the wording or part of the Jurat. On the other hand I had been told by a few that no way should a notary ever stamp unless it is for a notarization. I was always confused.
Thanks |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 09:22:17 AM
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| Whoa! Yes, we need to ascertain that a signer is alert and aware of what they are signing. But for us--or an LO, or even their own lawyer--to 'state' that 'they understand' is just not possible. Maybe they should have to take a test to see if they understand, huh? Just making my point that nobody can 'know' what's in another person's head. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 03:34:00 AM
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CYBOR - I took a minute to check the "ID Verification" form on PAN's site, since PAN has such an impeccable reputation (and you're so fortunate to be in PA and have this resource!). The form is exactly correct per your PA Notarial statutes.
On PAN's form, you are not "notarizing your own signature" - your signature is ONLY on the form as part of your notarial certificate. PA allows notaries to provide certificates to either certify a true copy of a document, OR to certify a true STATEMENT. In the instance of this particular ID Verification form, there is a 'statement of fact' and by your notarial signature, you are attesting to that being a TRUE statement of fact.
Here in MI, notaries can not certify anything as a true copy or their own true statement of fact. |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 10:23:57 PM
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| Its a prudent idea that the notary makes sure that the signer understands all documents, otherwise, you are putting yourself at risk of being a guest in court later on if someone is a victem of fraud. The risky cases are notarizing elderly people's signatures in hospitals or those who are not completely "with it". Powers of attorney and deeds affecting real property are the most critical. |
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cybor462
Pennsylvania
12 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 08:08:53 AM
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I have seen these too. The one I see most is the type where I need to sign a doc that has the signers info on. I have to sign it stating I ID'd them correctly. This is ok as that is a big part of my job. Must be because a notary somewhere screwed up and said they had no clue they were suppose to do it correctly. (Really)
This brings me to my question. I have seen this type of doc but it has me print my name in a line stating I ID'd the signer correctly and not only do I have to sign it, I am suppose to seal it too. There is no Jurat but it does not feel right.
I have never sealed it. But, is this not sealing our own signature, my training tells me this is not allowed. Am I nuts?
The reason I am dazed and confused (from the rockers, joke) is that PAN, The PA Assoc. of Notaries has a doc like that for download on their website.
Maybe I was sleeping thru this part of the notary law but it does not seem right.
Any ideas? |
Edited by - cybor462 on 05/25/2008 08:09:32 AM |
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Shannon
California
360 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 11:05:25 PM
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Did you ever hear back on this one?
"A Quick Note"
WWW.AQUICKNOTE.NET
Now Providing "Service of Process" in Orange County, CA |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 04:05:21 AM
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Per the New York County Clerk's office.
You notarize the signature and nothing more - you DONT certify anything - you dont make "statements of fact" - you JUST notarize the signatures - NOTHING MORE!
Also, if it's an affidavit - a sworn statement - a notary OTHER THAN YOU - must be there to notarize YOUR signature.
Ken in New York City |
Edited by - edelske on 03/05/2008 04:07:28 AM |
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TCMUNIZ
California
9 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 11:05:53 AM
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| Yes, that's what I actually did. I did not sign the affidavit and put a sticker on top saying that "this is not in the scope of my notary duties/responsibilities." ... Curious to see if I will get a call back. |
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AZSigner
Arizona
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 11:55:01 AM
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Personally, I would refuse to sign the affidavit altogether. Your notary stamp on the Deed of Trust and other documents is proof enough that you've properly identified the signers. Your notary journal contains more detailed evidence that you've properly identifed them.
As far as verifying that "the borrower understands the documents he/she is signing" - that's the responsibility of the lender (and the borrowers themselves, of course). They have three days to go over all the details with the lender if they have any trouble "understanding" any part of the documents. I'm not sure how YOU as the signing agent would be able to verify that they understand the loan documents unless they read through their entire contents, which would probably take at least a couple of hours.
I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds like signing this affidavit creates a significant liability on your part. It does sound like the lender is trying to pawn off liability on you. I've never been asked to sign such an affidavit myself, so I assume this affidavit is not absolutely necessary for the loan to go through. Don't sign it. |
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TCMUNIZ
California
9 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 10:08:51 AM
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Hi!
I received an edoc package from a signing company today and they want me to sign an affidavit that I properly identified the signers. This is not a problem for me. But, they are also asking me to certify that "The borrower understands the documents he/she is signing".
I really feel uncomfortable doing this. First of, I'm not to explain any Loan Docs or terms, second, I feel the lender wants to blame it on us notaries if borrowers make poor loan choices.
What would you do? Just cross out the section where it says "The borrower understands the documents he/she is signing"? Just leave it in and sign?
Waiting for your responses!
Thx
Tanja, Oceanside |
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Notary Affidavit Question
