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crtowles
California
553 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2010 : 11:01:25 AM
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n California we are no longer allowed to use 'personal knowledge' to identify a signer. So we must use government issued Identification only to identify the client. When taking/confirming an appointment I ALWAYS make sure that they have current ID in hand and that the names matches what is printed on the documents that they are to sign. This way we avoid any problems beforehand. If I find that they do not have proper identification when inquiring, I will inform the hiring party and then take it from there. If credible witness are to be used then I make sure that they have them at the signing, Nothing worse then to get there discover that you need them then you have to wait for them to arrive.
Carmen |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 07:10:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maple
The Vermont notary manual has an interesting take on it: the best form of ID is personal knowledge, and if the signer is not personally known to the notary, the notary has the option to decline to act, no matter how much ID the person has. The notary is allowed to rely on ID in the absence of personal knowledge, but the manual indicates this is a riskier thing to do than to just say no.
I like that, as it allows for the "gut instinct." But, it would not absolve the notary from potentially damaging a “rightful person” from executing a contract within a needed time line (for instance loss of lock-in on a loan). Care must be taken in how “the rule” applies. |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2010 : 09:15:11 AM
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| The Vermont notary manual has an interesting take on it: the best form of ID is personal knowledge, and if the signer is not personally known to the notary, the notary has the option to decline to act, no matter how much ID the person has. The notary is allowed to rely on ID in the absence of personal knowledge, but the manual indicates this is a riskier thing to do than to just say no. |
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azdocsign
Arizona
89 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 11:21:30 AM
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I always fingerprint those signing my journal. This is not an Arizona law, but I feel those with fake identification are not going to want to leave a fingerprint. I always give the Oath for a Jurat according to Arizona law. I think this might help deter the criminals as well. I also always think - What would I tell the Judge if I were called to testify and I do hope these steps would help.
Kathy Fletcher
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 01:37:11 AM
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| These examples are not acceptable according to Arizona notarial laws, Apaloosa. AZ does allow for credible witnesses, for those without ID. |
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apaloosa
54 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 7:18:45 PM
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In Arizona I have used an electric bill addressed to the borrower at the address we were signing at and also a birth certificate and visa.
These are all acceptable forms of ID.
Apaloosa |
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BobbiCT
Connecticut
135 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 10:13:55 AM
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"How do you identify a fake ID?"
You can't. I've attended two professional (expert Court witnesses and police forensic examinars) and they showed, even with their YEARS of experience and training, it is a hard thing to do.
CT does not requires notaries to have any training, education or experience in identifying fake identification documents. Good thing; less liability for me at $5 per notarization.
The notaries I know use the "reasonable doubt" standard. CT requires TWO forms of identification so this makes it easier. If both IDs look legit and key data matches (photos/height-weight/eye color/ birth date ... "I'm sorry, I can't read your birth date in this light - what is it? [answer is fast and correct because you CAN read it]), I would go for it. ID that is signed on top of the lamination or signer cannot produce two forms of ID with matching information, I suggest s/he find a notary where they work or at their bank branch where they have their checking account to ID them.
Bobbi in CT |
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Conniek
Oregon
78 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 12:07:01 AM
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In Oregon we are not allowed any longer to write a Drivers License number in our Journal. We just got word from State Notary Division this winter that we can only put a Expiration Date but no DMV license nos! Is this also in any other states???? Thanks for reply!
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 10:31:22 AM
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| I once saw a fake ID. The signature was ON the lamination which was cracking off. An obvious fake. How do you identify a fake ID? |
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Florida_Notary
Florida
6 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 08:52:03 AM
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| No ID, No closey... I had one try to use a fake ID. We are notaries and need to keep standards. |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 3:40:00 PM
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| In Arkansas, we say bye-bye...see you again when you get a valid acceptable ID. No CW's here. |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 02:16:43 AM
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Many times a title company or signing service has requested that I use a Credible Witness when the borrower cannot produce adequate ID. However, in Kansas the handbook states the following:
24. How does a notary identify a signer?
A notary identifies a signer by carefully examining the identification presented by that person and comparing the signatures the person has made on the document with the signature on the identification. Proper “ID” should include a photograph and signature on a reliable identification card such as a driver’s license. It is also considered sufficient identification if, under oath, a credible witness personally known by the notary identifies the person.
One lender was particularly upset when the bolded portion was indicated to them. So, actually knowing a person is important. |
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crtowles
California
553 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 4:03:54 PM
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Hi Jeremy :)
I was referring to this post that you made only;
"This may vary from state to state, but do you all know how to handle the paperwork for credible witnesses? In CA we record their driver license information in our journal as well as phone numbers and perhaps an address too as well as a signature from them in the notes section of the journal... not the signature section as the signature section is for the person who signs the document"
I wanted to make sure that our Ca notaries knew exactly what they needed to record in their journals when dealing with CW's
C |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 1:52:17 PM
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Hi Carmen,
I never said anything about identifying the witnesses or not identifying them. I simply said they could be recylcled or re-used as credible witnesses at a signing. In CA and perhaps other states you need to identify the credible witnesses with drivers licenses or other means of ID and record that and their signature in your journal as well as a phone number for good luck. |
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crtowles
California
553 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 09:03:05 AM
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Jeremy that is not quite correct...and just so we are clear. California notaries are REQUIRED to write in their journals-the type of document that was used to identify the CW, the agency/government that issued the ID, the serial number of the ID used. The date of issue and the expiration date and their signature. There are no exceptions. I personally give them their own line and reference it to the appropriate line right below the individual who they are identifying in my journal. Much neater that way.
~Carmen |
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crtowles
California
553 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 08:52:11 AM
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The borrower/signer.
C |
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n/a
1 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 05:58:12 AM
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| Does the creditble witness or the borrower give a thumb print? |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 08:38:55 AM
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If you live in a witness state, you could use ( recycle ) the witness(es) to be a credible witness if he/she/they know the signer if your state allows it.
quote:
Originally posted by dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire is not a witness state so credible witnesses only come up once in a great while depending on the circumstances.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 08:37:33 AM
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A witness state has to do with witnesses signing either the Deed or Note. I don't know which because I live in California and have neverhad to deal with it. That has nothign to do with credible witnesses for identifying the signer.
quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but being a "witness state" has nothing to do with the use of credible witnesses - CW's come into play when the signer doesn't have proper or acceptable identification.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 04:06:03 AM
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New Hampshire is not a witness state so credible witnesses only come up once in a great while depending on the circumstances.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 3:48:52 PM
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| This may vary from state to state, but do you all know how to handle the paperwork for credible witnesses? In CA we record their driver license information in our journal as well as phone numbers and perhaps an address too as well as a signature from them in the notes section of the journal... not the signature section as the signature section is for the person who signs the document. |
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timgatewood
Tennessee
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 7:16:30 PM
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I totally agree with you. I hear folks talk about the thumbprint as a form of ID. In fact, one of the police officers in one of my Masonic groups told me recently that the judges in some of the courts here require that defendants be ID'ed by fingerprints before they will let them into the courtroom, as it is (so-they-say) "so easy to counterfeit the other forms of ID." Well, my thought on this is that a proper ID has a photo or a sufficient physical description for you to tell whether this person in front of you is who he claims to be -- the fingerprint lacks that. Also, unless you are in law enforcement and have ready access to a very large database of fingerprints, how are you using the print to ID the person?
I expect the State to set the standards of what forms of ID we will accept, as being a Notary is a Public (i.e., government) position for which the government is required to provide rules and regs. A judge may set his or her own standards within limits, but a Notary generally is supposed to follow the laws and regs of their respective State.
-- Tim
quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
No Deb - you gather ID prior to notarizing - how can you run a thumbprint for ID purposes? In FL we're not authorized to fingerprint..we can request a thumbprint in our journal but the signer has the right to refuse to give it, and we can't refuse to notarize simply because they refuse to be fingerprinted.
Also, FL is very specific about what ID is required for identification...no "primary and secondary" formulas like Lee -
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
Notary Memphis
Traveling Notary, Signing Agent & Field Inspector
Serving Memphis & west Tenn. |
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timgatewood
Tennessee
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 7:09:26 PM
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Tennessee requires: 1) personally known to the Notary (defined as known over a period of time in more than one place,etc); or 2) credible witnesses personally known to the notary who know the signer and will swear to his/her identity (usually on a written aff to that effect); or 3) one of the 4 standard IDs (drivers license, state-issued ID, US military ID, US Passport). We can also accept non-US Passports, but nothing is stated in the Code about taking military ID from other countries. Oh yeah, the use of the IDs is supposed to be based on "reasonable reliance upon" them, so it is a judgment call on the part of the Notary if the ID seems questionable. One of my SS clients claims the TN Secretary of State told her CW does not have to be personally known to the notary, that they can be "known" by showing one of the standard IDs -- but they did not get this "opinion" in writing and the Code seems to be pretty clear that "personally known" IS required.
If they have none of those, I don't notarize. I suggest they think about whom they know who might be a notary (perhaps a neighbor or someone from church) who could be convinced to join us for the signing to do the notarizations.
One odd thing here. The standard IDs are supposed to be "current" (not expired) or issued within 5 years. Well, the way I see it, if they were Sally Jones in May and their ID expired in May, they are still Sally Jones in December. It is not "reasonable" to assume the signer stopped being who they are just because their driver license expired. Now, if it expired over a year ago and they have just not bothered to renew it (or perhaps there are legal issues that prevent them from renewing it -- and they don't want to show up at the locations where the state-issued IDs are issued for fear of those legal issues), well, then I don't notarize for them.
Notary Memphis
Traveling Notary, Signing Agent & Field Inspector
Serving Memphis & west Tenn. |
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beccafla
Florida
96 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 3:42:49 PM
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You are right, Linda, as to Florida notary law.
I have, on two occasions, had to use CW's. Cws can only be used in Florida under extreme conditions, as you pointed out earlier, Linda.
The first time I used 2 CWs for ID was when I had to ID a woman w/ a FLDL in her former married name and because the DMV was still closed due to hurricane damage, it was impossible for her to get new ID reflecting her new name.
The second time, I had a NOBS from out of the country that had his passport stolen while visiting the US. He had a DL from Haiti and a reissued Haitian Passport w/o a US stamp. The US consulate would not stamp a temporary passport and the guy was stuck here until it was all sorted out.
Again, Florida allows for CWs under extreme or impossible situations. Otherwise, just go to the DMV and get your ID issue corrected.
Florida NSA Network - "Florida's Premier Notary Network"
Need a Mobile Closer in Florida? Ask me for a referral.
FloridaNSANetwork.com |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 12:20:24 PM
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| What can you do according to your state's laws, if your signer doesn't have identification? |
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Topic |
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Dear Signing Agents,
Question 7. No ID? What to do?
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